FT Questions....

[Scott Stevenson]

zigzagging problem

i Scott i have this problem mostly on chest and back

if i hammerpress 1 set
1:30min rest
i go lets say flyes 1 set
and then i go back to hammerpress it is often taken by someone
my zigzag is often taken out

so i get on the incline hammer
and then the bench/ or cablecross I just used is then taken by someone

this is even worse on back i have not gotten the same zigzag yet.
to many people sometimes.

so what to do here? just to straigt sets or should i just do the machine
that is available?

do you really need this zigzagen?

This sounds like a gym etiquette issue, assuming you're not dilly-dallying and are making it know (with gym towel or bag or what have you) that you're using the machines.

I've covered other solutions here on the board before.

Bring DB's the bench you're using for barbell smith pressing and use that bench for both compound and isolation (fly) exercises.

Do rack deads or BO rows in a rack where you also do pull-ups.

Literally, if you've got a bar loaded up fully, your stuff is on it and you can't get across the gym (go at the last minute - end of your rest interval) to do a set of machine flies, and return back to the gym (gone for 2:00 max), that's an issue with gym etiquette, I'd say. (I've run into this and typically folks who do such a thing are clueless in some way.)

But no, you don't HAVe to zig zag of course.

2. i saw jorden peter whtoe this on his board

Upper session today , some stuff was straight sets as just doesn’t lend itself well to muscle rounds. For me , I’m actually done with any pressing muscle round movement , it offers me nothing . Last year I got VERY weak doing some of the moves as muscle rounds ,

just wondering if you have any problems you self.?

thanks
your program makes me wanna lift heavy again and some commonsense behind it, you bring the best info

I've never had this issue, but I did see that Jordan wrote that.

You'd have to ask him.

The way that's phrased, it sounds like either:

1.) He was doing MR's with presses and getting progressively weaker / having poorer gym performance on them and not switching them out. (which I'd not expect).

2.) His straight set (Low rep?) strength on presses tends to go down after a period of doing MR's with those exercises, even if he's progressing upward as far as MR reps a/o weight when doing the MR's.

#2 sounds more plausible and isn't terribly out of the ordinary as it could be explained by specificity of training with respect to rep range (and %1RM). If he's using a 5RM as strength measure, then starts training a given exercise with MR's (more like a 15RM load), he could be losing neurological adaptations that were specific to the ~5RM load.

If someone were to be doing too many MR's (over stressing a muscle), then this could cause a strength loss, too. That's a generic statement, but someone with Jordan's strength level, who has peaked strength on presses and then moves to using MR's for those exercises could very well lose strength relative to his peaked strength.

In the same way that higher reps training isn't specific to or carry over as well to lower Rep max efforts ("Strength" in that it's closer to max muscle force output, typically measured with a 1RM), removing heavier loading (or not balancing that with other forms of loading) and moving to higher reps training for given movement could mean a loss of those rep-maximum (Load) range specific adaptations.

Assuming neurological, strength would come back quickly once restart gin the heavy loading again, but if the training were excessive, not so much.

(Jordan also presses in a very explosive fashion, and this simply isn't possible during the course of a MR as fatigue ensues, so this aspect of the training stimulus would be lost to some degree, in addition to the change of load.)

The true test here would be to see if there is a 2 steps forward / 1 step back scenario at play. Over time, alternating between heavy loading and using MRs, does strength increase even though there is some loss when returning to heavier training after the period of MR's. (And does new found strength carry over to MR's eventually when returning to that style of training.)

So, I'm speculating, but i'd guess that one can't simply boil this down to MR's being strength destroyers, especially if one is progressing on the MR's and gives it enough time after returning to to heavy training to re-establish neurological adaptations to that kind of training.

-S

[thethinker48]

Hey Scott,

You ever notice how some guys press explosively while others press in a slower controlled manner? Would you say genetics play a big role in that? Given an individual's distribution of type 1/2 fibers. A more explosive fashion would result in more growth given that the person's makeup would be more towards type 2 fiber distribution?

On the other hand Lee Priest always pressed in a slow manner , and had no trouble growing. I've noticed that I don't have the same strength if I press fast and explosively, I can press more weight slowly.

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[Scott Stevenson]

Hey Scott,

You ever notice how some guys press explosively while others press in a slower controlled manner? Would you say genetics play a big role in that? Given an individual's distribution of type 1/2 fibers. A more explosive fashion would result in more growth given that the person's makeup would be more towards type 2 fiber distribution?

Genetics are far secondary to motor control in exercise execution.

Those with more Type II fibers may have a greater potential for growth (as the Type II's hypertrophy more so - in SOME studies) than type I's. OTOH, studies of BB'ers (larger muscles and PL'ers) tend to show a higher percentage of Type I's that are actually (sometimes) the same size as untrained controls. This would suggest that metabolic stress (and hyperplasia) may play a role here.

So, what you're getting at is the relative importance of the mechanisms of muscle hypertrophy. Powerful movements DO load the muscle more so and when doing a typical "rep" (coupled concentric / eccentric) doing so on the concentric will mean more loading and thus more growth,. all other things being equal.

OTOH, powerful pressing - in some - can me using muscles other than the intended target muscle, i.e.,. shitty form and poor "mind-muscle" connection, in which case any advantage on loading (esp. on the ECCENTRIC which involves controlling a now heavier weight that was lifted in a powerful fashion) would be lost.

Getting close to the root of your question: A person with more Type II would be better suited for explosive lifting (with a good mind-muscle connection), so that would be better suited for them.

Interestingly enough, the distribution of muscle fiber types,. which is genetic, isn't as genetically determined as some folks tend to believe.

1. Bouchard C, Simoneau JA, Lortie G, Boulay MR, Marcotte M, Thibault MC. Genetic effects in human skeletal muscle fiber type distribution and enzyme activities. Can J Physiol Pharmacol. 1986;64(9):1245-1251.

On the other hand Lee Priest always pressed in a slow manner , and had no trouble growing. I've noticed that I don't have the same strength if I press fast and explosively, I can press more weight slowly.

I could talk for hours on just these two topics.

Lee has GREAT mind-muscle connnection and the genetics to grow easily. I would imagine he would have a very high Type I fiber percentage, given his training style.

Your last sentence is overloaded with info. and potential inquiry, but I'll just say this: Go SLOW in your case, as this suggests you've found the right motor program to target your intended musculature (i'm guessing chest mainly). Faster attempts probably through off your chest activation (if you're naturally a delt presser) and you intuitively sense this and DON'T press with the delts a/o rely upon shoulder girdle protraction to press the load upward.

-S

[nordan]

Hi Scott, or anyone else who may of been in a similar position.
So into my 6th blast now and still loving it. Im in what I would call a prep, not for a serious show but for a holiday.

Now I timed the cruise which for the last 5 blasts has been at the end of 6 weeks to coincide when I'm away and have no access to the gym, makes sense right ?

Now in the past (4) I've been in a calorie surplus so it's been pretty dandy however these last two I've been in a deficit as the aim is to drop the off season chub. I've aimed to keep food as high as possible and in fact haven't reduced any of it so that my weight sessions stay strong and keep improving weight/ rep wise. The deficit has come by cardio (1400kcals daily to be precise, a substantial amount I know).

Last week was a real chore and I know that towards the end of it I felt the blast should be coming to an end (lifts regressing slightly, niggles etc) which obviously isn't what I want/ needed due to an imminent holiday approaching (time off) nor is it ideal as that would mean having further time off (14 days) only two weeks into a blast.

Inevitably my aim is to push all the way until my intended holiday which from now is 16 days away. My session tonight suffered big time leg wise and I failed to progress any form of lift, even my first set of thighs.. I fell short by a substantial amount and by good few reps which is a sign that I'm done, the blast is over (really frustrating but being in a deficit it's inevitable it was going to happen at some stage).

How would you suggest I continue on/ training until my vacay? As mentioned I'm 16 days away from my vacation at which point I'll have a further two solid weeks away from gym before commencing my next blast. That's essentially a whole month.. two weeks too long than a normal cruise would run for. Would you perform an extended one off cruise consisting of MR's or pump sets etc for the next two weeks.

How would you set this up? I'm desperate to not take any more time off than what is necessary however I'm sceptical I'm now essentially in or extremely close to an overtraining phase. Upper body pump seems to be okay judging by tonight's session. The last two sessions of MR's were okay too upper body wise.. it's mainly legs which are beat up and regressing.

I have upper load / lower pump Thursday which I'm not sure what to do with. Cardio has been reduced by 50% as I've been smashing it as of recent in order to keep food intake high, I've been creating a 1400kcal deficit via cardio daily just to give you some insight. Sorry if I'm blabbing on now, hopefully you can assist and pour down the knowledge as usual. Many thanks.


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[nordan]

I'll just quickly touch up on here if anyone had any questions.
One no doubt might be..
"why so much cardio?"

Well to answer that, in the past I've dropped food first and used cardio as a tool to facilitate loss but kept it to a minimum (progressing that as the deficit got further) however lifts regressed every regularly, id say every 4 weeks and needed to deload and switch exercises a lot sooner (didn't do fortitude at this point). This in turn resulted in me losing pretty much any gains made throughout the off season.

The approach I've used this time round where keeping food maxed (no drop in kcals so to speak) and creating a deficit with LISS as HIIT is far too taxing doing FT, has meant me making vast improvements physique wise and being in the same if not better condition in terms of leanness but with 10lbs of muscle extra (no super supps here). Different approach but it has worked wonders absolute wonders for me no matter how much I slate having to do cardio.


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[Scott Stevenson]

Hey Bud!

Firstly, congrats on your progress!

I'll keep the brief so we can stay focused.

1.) The Cruise isn't supposed to be a period of no weight training again. IT's an Intensive Cruise, which for many folks is VERY helpful in making gain. So, while of course, you're free to do things as you will, I suspect it's possible that you've still far from optimized your gains b/c of how you've been doing deloads.

2.) I can't tell if you're doing 14,000kcal / day of cardio NOW (as in yesterday or day) or you've dropped down from that to 50% as much... (I'm hoping you weren't doing 28,000 kcal / day of cardio at some point.

3.) Your response to "why so much cardio" doesn't, as far as I can tell, really justify blasting away with a massive amount of cardio at the start. It might make sense to ease your way in with cardio only (and not change your diet) or simply change your diet and not add cardio (as it seems the issue was the combination of the two?...), but this approach doesn't seem justified and I think you're now seeing the issue....

4.) When (time of day, relative to wt. training) and what cardio - specifically what activity - are you doing?

-S

[nordan]

Hey Bud!

Firstly, congrats on your progress!

I'll keep the brief so we can stay focused.

1.) The Cruise isn't supposed to be a period of no weight training again. IT's an Intensive Cruise, which for many folks is VERY helpful in making gain. So, while of course, you're free to do things as you will, I suspect it's possible that you've still far from optimized your gains b/c of how you've been doing deloads.

2.) I can't tell if you're doing 14,000kcal / day of cardio NOW (as in yesterday or day) or you've dropped down from that to 50% as much... (I'm hoping you weren't doing 28,000 kcal / day of cardio at some point.

3.) Your response to "why so much cardio" doesn't, as far as I can tell, really justify blasting away with a massive amount of cardio at the start. It might make sense to ease your way in with cardio only (and not change your diet) or simply change your diet and not add cardio (as it seems the issue was the combination of the two?...), but this approach doesn't seem justified and I think you're now seeing the issue....

4.) When (time of day, relative to wt. training) and what cardio - specifically what activity - are you doing?

-S

Scott, thanks for the input. Ill touch up on some of your responses.

In response to Q1:

I have been doing the intensive cruise's in the past as so..

2 weeks total (as a blast has been 6 weeks in the past) so 1/3 of the blast cruising as the book. This has consisted of dropping down a tier so down to tier 1 as I have found turbo tier II just right for me in terms of volume and maintaining intensity.

Cruise Setup.

Tuesday - Day 3
Friday - Day 4
Monday - Day 3
Thursday - Day 4.

then the rest of the time off completely (4 days) until I restart the next blast which would be Tuesday again (this typically is the final 1/3 of the cruise, away from weights).


Essentially this means i'm doubling up on rest days before each session as I normally do a
Tuesday - Day 1
Thursday - Day 2
Saturday - Day 3
Sunday - Day 4 split.

Again, comment if you believe I have set this up wrong so I can change and make EVEN FURTHER PROGRESS!

Q2 / Q3 / Q4.

So when I started my cut, initially it was a diet change as throughout my off season I was sitting at 4500 kcals on a training day @ 170lbs. This gave me an instant relief from all the eating and my g.i. tract a break from all the food.

From there I added cardio as wanted to do something differently to the previous years rather than just dropping food and see what the results were as I mentioned in the past, I would just drop food and do minimal cardio but that resulted in me losing all my hard earned off season gains. So a different approach has been to maintain calories as high as possible and create a deficit and facilitate fat loss via cardio only (after initial diet change).

Cardio wise this time around started on 20 mins LISS Daily, a walk or whatever it may be, no monitoring HR or anything.
This worked for a while and as things progressed or should I say stagnated.

I increased this further so this went up to 30 mins LISS upon wake.

Then from there 2 sessions of 20 mins a day due to time constraints
(40 mins total).

I wont carry on but eventually I have worked up to 1 hour sessions twice a day @ 135bpm. LISS upon wake, and a further session at Lunchtime, both of these via eliptical machine or spin bike due to busting my ankle (I posted about that a few pages back) my weight session being in the evening and as far away from cardio as possible. Now I know its not completely accurate by all means and just a guide but my HR Monitor (Not the one's on the machines) say I have achieved 1400 Kcal deficit by cardio approx.

1400 kcal a day x 7 = 9,800 a week from LISS.
I would say approx 800-1000 kcals further on training days obtained from my weight sessions too. So Approx 13-14k kcals a week burnt in total.

Calorie wise I am now on approx 2800 training day and 2000 rest day @ 153lb.
I started the cut at around 168ish so 15lb drop in 9 weeks.. I would say 1-2lb of that has been muscle at a MAXIMUM (again not accurate as haven't had a DEXA scan) but this is looking and judging by the mirror, and I tell you something I have made some significant improvements).

So as mentioned as of last week I started to suffer symptoms of overtraining (as listed in the book) so niggles, increased recovery times, soreness, regression on lifts etc etc. Now like I said I didn't and still don't want the blast to end prematurely due to the holiday being so imminent and what would in turn result in nearly a month off a starting a new blast. E.g. Start the cruise now, approx 2 weeks of IC, then holiday starts.. 2 weeks off sailing (no gym obviously) that equates to nearly 30 days. 30 days until I start a new blast? No thanks .

As of this week, to try prolong this phase / blast until I go on holiday I have reduced cardio by 50% so I am now down to 1 hour a day in an effort to maintain training intensity and progressively beating the log book.

How do you suggest I prolong this blast or at the very least maintain training of some sort up until I go on holiday. I understand regardless that the blast will be coming to an end as of Sunday (that's if I can make it) and from there I will be 8 days away from my vacation. 8 days to perform an IC and hit some tier 1 MR's as you normally would either like I have done before (listed above) or as you advise, before I then take a further prolonged period amount of time off (14 days complete rest).

This is a pretty long winded post but hopefully understand my position and can advise accordingly. As always.. thanks a bunch!

[Scott Stevenson]

Scott, thanks for the input. Ill touch up on some of your responses.

In response to Q1:

I have been doing the intensive cruise's in the past as so..

2 weeks total (as a blast has been 6 weeks in the past) so 1/3 of the blast cruising as the book. This has consisted of dropping down a tier so down to tier 1 as I have found turbo tier II just right for me in terms of volume and maintaining intensity.

Cruise Setup.

Tuesday - Day 3
Friday - Day 4
Monday - Day 3
Thursday - Day 4.

then the rest of the time off completely (4 days) until I restart the next blast which would be Tuesday again (this typically is the final 1/3 of the cruise, away from weights).


Essentially this means i'm doubling up on rest days before each session as I normally do a
Tuesday - Day 1
Thursday - Day 2
Saturday - Day 3
Sunday - Day 4 split.

Again, comment if you believe I have set this up wrong so I can change and make EVEN FURTHER PROGRESS!

How did you do this when you have "no access to the gym?"

Q2 / Q3 / Q4.

So when I started my cut, initially it was a diet change as throughout my off season I was sitting at 4500 kcals on a training day @ 170lbs. This gave me an instant relief from all the eating and my g.i. tract a break from all the food.

From there I added cardio as wanted to do something differently to the previous years rather than just dropping food and see what the results were as I mentioned in the past, I would just drop food and do minimal cardio but that resulted in me losing all my hard earned off season gains. So a different approach has been to maintain calories as high as possible and create a deficit and facilitate fat loss via cardio only (after initial diet change).

I see an issue here that fits with the below, too, I think. If you're dropping your kcal so fast that you're on a trajectory for using all y our off-season gains, then one would typically SLOW that progress down, rather than continue,. using strength as a guage of muscle mass.

By analogy, If you see a wall coming at you (via strength and the mirror) as you drive down the road, then you'd stop and change direction, eh?...

Cardio wise this time around started on 20 mins LISS Daily, a walk or whatever it may be, no monitoring HR or anything.
This worked for a while and as things progressed or should I say stagnated.

I increased this further so this went up to 30 mins LISS upon wake.

Then from there 2 sessions of 20 mins a day due to time constraints
(40 mins total).

I wont carry on but eventually I have worked up to 1 hour sessions twice a day @ 135bpm. LISS upon wake, and a further session at Lunchtime, both of these via eliptical machine or spin bike due to busting my ankle (I posted about that a few pages back) my weight session being in the evening and as far away from cardio as possible. Now I know its not completely accurate by all means and just a guide but my HR Monitor (Not the one's on the machines) say I have achieved 1400 Kcal deficit by cardio approx.

1400 kcal a day x 7 = 9,800 a week from LISS.
I would say approx 800-1000 kcals further on training days obtained from my weight sessions too. So Approx 13-14k kcals a week burnt in total.

Calorie wise I am now on approx 2800 training day and 2000 rest day @ 153lb.
I started the cut at around 168ish so 15lb drop in 9 weeks.. I would say 1-2lb of that has been muscle at a MAXIMUM (again not accurate as haven't had a DEXA scan) but this is looking and judging by the mirror, and I tell you something I have made some significant improvements).

So as mentioned as of last week I started to suffer symptoms of overtraining (as listed in the book) so niggles, increased recovery times, soreness, regression on lifts etc etc. Now like I said I didn't and still don't want the blast to end prematurely due to the holiday being so imminent and what would in turn result in nearly a month off a starting a new blast. E.g. Start the cruise now, approx 2 weeks of IC, then holiday starts.. 2 weeks off sailing (no gym obviously) that equates to nearly 30 days. 30 days until I start a new blast? No thanks .

That point last week would have been the time to start adjusting, not now when you're in the hole, so to speak.

As of this week, to try prolong this phase / blast until I go on holiday I have reduced cardio by 50% so I am now down to 1 hour a day in an effort to maintain training intensity and progressively beating the log book.

How do you suggest I prolong this blast or at the very least maintain training of some sort up until I go on holiday. I understand regardless that the blast will be coming to an end as of Sunday (that's if I can make it) and from there I will be 8 days away from my vacation. 8 days to perform an IC and hit some tier 1 MR's as you normally would either like I have done before (listed above) or as you advise, before I then take a further prolonged period amount of time off (14 days complete rest).

This is a pretty long winded post but hopefully understand my position and can advise accordingly. As always.. thanks a bunch!

I'd suggest you cut your cardio entirely and go right into a cruise, TBH as it sounds like if you try to lose more fat, you ARE going to end up non-functionally overreached or overtrained. (non-functional overreaching is when you've overreached and put yourself in a place where you can recover in a matter of many days / several weeks (shorter than if truly overtrained), but that recovery process doesn't involve a rebound in training gains or overshoot in strength, etc. )

Simply cut your losses and stick with what you've managed so far. You will likely fill out (esp. legs) eating just your current diet for the next couple days and thereafter you can adjust diet as needed to ensure y you're not gaining any fat (but ALSO able to recover from the training). I would suspect that your current caloric input will be right on for leveling you and allowing an IC rebound such that you're ina great place for your vacation.

(It also sounds like you could use just some good old time away from the gym at this point - a solid vacation - so this would be a good time to ensure that you're no longer overreached and can come back after vacation ready to tackle the gym again.)

So, that's my best guess, but I admit it's limited b/c YOU are the one living this and I have the sense that you're still getting the hang of autoregualting . That's a GREAT amount of fat loss for that period, so I'd take that and run with it (but leave out the literal running part).

-S


[/quote]

[nordan]

How did you do this when you have "no access to the gym?"


That point last week would have been the time to start adjusting, not now when you're in the hole, so to speak.


I'd suggest you cut your cardio entirely and go right into a cruise, TBH as it sounds like if you try to lose more fat, you ARE going to end up non-functionally overreached or overtrained. (non-functional overreaching is when you've overreached and put yourself in a place where you can recover in a matter of many days / several weeks (shorter than if truly overtrained), but that recovery process doesn't involve a rebound in training gains or overshoot in strength, etc. )

Simply cut your losses and stick with what you've managed so far. You will likely fill out (esp. legs) eating just your current diet for the next couple days and thereafter you can adjust diet as needed to ensure y you're not gaining any fat (but ALSO able to recover from the training). I would suspect that your current caloric input will be right on for leveling you and allowing an IC rebound such that you're ina great place for your vacation.

(It also sounds like you could use just some good old time away from the gym at this point - a solid vacation - so this would be a good time to ensure that you're no longer overreached and can come back after vacation ready to tackle the gym again.)

So, that's my best guess, but I admit it's limited b/c YOU are the one living this and I have the sense that you're still getting the hang of autoregualting . That's a GREAT amount of fat loss for that period, so I'd take that and run with it (but leave out the literal running part).

-S

[/quote]


We must of confused each other a little here as I have had access to the gym in my last 5 IC's, its the latter part of this next cruise where I wont. Typically on a vacation you would use or have access to a hotel gym however I am on a boat in the middle of the ocean so no squat rack or DB's here

In terms of IC set up (outlined above), is that looking reasonable ? Or would you adjust that?

Understood about calling it quits and starting the IC now. If I was to start this IC now though it would last 30 days. As that (30 days) will be the duration up until the vacation and period OF the vacation. So 30 days until I start my next blast.
This is obviously nearly double what a normal 6 week blast IC would last for.. which is why I am keen to prolong the blast and reach the end of week 6. The way I see it is the additional time off should then hopefully off-set any overtraining / over reaching I would have obtained.

What I am asking was how would one set this up?
Just go with my usual IC programming?
Days 3 & 4 up until I leave?

I totally agree about time off from the gym. I am looking forward to enjoying myself and not doing anything too strenuous.

Overall I do feel a lot more refreshed having cut the cardio to 50% this week. Last week was horrific.

[thethinker48]

Thank you for taking the time to answer questions Scott! Training and diet (more training!) were the big reasons I ever got into bodybuilding.

In terms of blast progress. How important do you see weight gain as part of the whole picture? If you are actively cycling your carbs, you're having rats use GH, consistently beating your logbook, and still seeing an outline of your abs, Should the scale be of any concern?

I've been 205 lbs at 5'7 before but I look VASTLY different now, and am much stronger. The problem always seems to be the scale and it not shifting much during a blast (a few pounds initially due to supplement use, and maybe 1-3 lbs total after proceeding a blast).

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