(08-15-2018, 10:15 PM)Scott Stevenson Wrote: THANK YOU so much for that, man! Glad to help - it's just part of my mission, but it's great to hear kind feedback like this.

(There was someone who posted here and sent me some nasty emails who basically told me to "F" off - actually he did say that - b/c he wanted to be told what to do. I refunded his book purchase, of course. )


John configures each of his programs differently, so I'm not sure how that one would lend itself to adjusting downward.

A few thoughts:

I would personally try to ride it out until you're quite certain you need to adjust downward. I think he uses a subjective scale to tell you how hard to push on many of those sets, so you may need to really ponder that and perhaps put in you mind the idea that there is not a kind of "work set" that is somewhere intermediate to a purely preparatory warm-up and how you'd carry out sets in FT (to failure or stopping with 1-2 reps in reserve). Think of those another kind of flexlble Set Type that's MD training specific. :

Does he say in this program that you can drop one of the extra days?... (That's a common feature of his programs.) If so, that would be the way to go (as needed), as his programs are well thought out. I'd not drop the extra day that's the focus of the training block, though, as it sounds like that's the key feature of this program?....

Also, he's got a FB group where you can post Q's. I'm an admin there (I think) so I can get you in to get some feedback if you like.

-S

(08-16-2018, 08:12 AM)thethinker48 Wrote: Thank you!

I think I'll take your advice and I'll ride it out for a bit before making any adjustments. It almost becomes second nature to tweak things now due to FT.

I did substitute a back exercise that utilized more biceps than the one John had in there, and a response my biceps took more of a beating from that one session (they usually respond to volume by flattening out)... everything's carefully put in there

Having fast access to people like you or John nowadays can almost be a double edged sword [emoji846]

Thanks again

(08-18-2018, 06:10 PM)Stewilliams Wrote: Apologies in advance if this has already been answered.

How would one differentiate between under recovery by under eating or under recovery by central nervous fatigue?

I have just finished week 3 of a tier 1 blast and am so relieved at having two rest days in a row as I feel physically exhausted. I am aiming to be in a slight deficit but nothing substantial (looking leaner but weight has held this week). I am only looking to drop around 2 kg's over the course of the next 4-6 weeks so am not pushing a severe deficit. Am also utilising a nutrient timing approach as outlined in the book.

Symptoms are simply feeling very physically tired, legs feel like the forces of gravity have increased. Other than that I feel ok mentally, sleep and appetite are fine and the log book took an ass whooping again this week .

My plan is to blast for a further week while being open to swapping some fats out for carbs on rest day meals if lifts stall at all.

Anybody have any advice/ recommendations as to what they would/have done in this situation?

(08-18-2018, 11:33 PM)Scott Stevenson Wrote: I think you're asking this question under the premise that the there's a clear and substantial separation between those two contributors to poor recovery.

Chances are, you could start eating in a substantial surplus and feel better and perhaps pull out of this feeling of exhaustion (but it would take some time). In other words, I would imagine that if you had been eating in a substantial surplus during this blast, that you'd not be as wiped out right now...

While it's the nervous system that's taxed immediately by the training bout, this will manifest in the autonomic nervous system (ANS), the endocrine system and the immune system, with the ANS playing a role in sleep, digestion, etc and control of energy homeostasis. So, eating at a deficit means some perturbation of the endocrine system (think everything from leptin and ghrelin to thyroid output to perhaps even a lowering of testosterone), as well as a shift in the ANS towards sympathetic drive liberate fatty acid stores. On the other hand, taxing training that stresses the CNS, also stresses the ANS and it's actually been hypothesized that there are sympathetic and parasympathetic versions of the overtraining syndrome (OTS), and it seems from the little data that are out there that OTS manifests differently when brought on by endurance training vs. resistance training...

So, for you, it could just be that your propensity to slip towards and overreached state is highly increased by eating at / near a deficit (perhaps more so than for other folks). This probably is a function of your overall activity level, total caloric intake, of course, the extent of the deficit and how lean you are...

So, you could test this by eating up for a couple days (and sleeping as much as possible) and seeing how you feel. It's also OK to skip a day of training during FT. (For some, this throws off the weekly training pattern, so it's not favored.) There are some data suggesting that toggling your dietary intake in this way (eating up for a few days every few weeks) actually improves fat loss outcome (e.g., preservation of fat-free mass), so I'd not be afraid to do so (even if just for the "sake of science").

-S

(08-19-2018, 07:25 PM)Stewilliams Wrote: Thank you Scott, I genuinely had them as separate factors in my head so thank you for setting me straight!

I've solved the problem through accidental means. I went to a party that a long term friend of mine was hosting who I hadn't seen in nearly a couple of years. I just planned on showing my face for a couple of hours before heading home. In the end I ended up getting very drunk for the first time in a long time and eating a lot of food. Today despite my hangover I feel energetic and look incredibly tight and full (win-win). Diet back to normal today and looking forward to beating the logbook again this week .

(08-22-2018, 04:05 AM)TheOtherOne55 Wrote: Hey Scott, quick intro from me then a question for you.

Long time follower, poster on ProMuscle and even longer on IntenseMuscle. Been using Fortitude off and on for years now.
Have had great results doing blocks of FT with a couple JM programs in-between. In the past 2 years I've made the biggest changes in my physique using both of those. Sit at a solid 250 at around 9% bf now. My last stage weight was around 229-232. In a nice little cruise right now using FT but plan to have a progressive offseason using FT.
But I have a question about intensity for you.

I'm actually a former PLer so one of the main reasons I love DC and FT especially is getting into the intensity, "it's this set and only this set! get it!" mind set. With that being said, I HAVE had to pull back...similar to what Jordan did this year...and reassess each movement, leave my ego at the door and lower the weight so that I am really feeeeeling every exercises in the intended muscle. PLing was more of a get hyped, move weight from Point A to Point B no matter how you do it. When developing your physique AND using progressive overload, you have to move the weight while still putting the proper tension on everything you are trying to grow. Basically, make it harder on yourself and check your damn ego.

But my question more goes to the "hyping" mindset before a loading set for example. As a PLer, I had heard 2 separate arguments for getting yourself mentally ready for the set. One was that of finding a way to get your body into fight and flight mode quickly. Hype yourself up. This is life or death so lets do this. This usually in turn allowed me to put up significantly higher numbers, butttt it was something that in order to progress on, you NEED to do this. For instance, you can hype yourself up so much where you bench 405 for 10. But you can only do that with alllll the parts moving at once. Everything needs to be perfect in your environment. You could try this 5 more times....maybe hitting 10 twice out of the 5. You can watch any PLer walking up the platform and see them doing this. Smelling salts, slaps in the face, whatever you need to turn it on.
The OTHER argument was for pushing your strength limits without the crazy stimulus. Basically, don't get hyped all to hell. Build a base...where when you can go into the gym, you KNOW for FACT that you can bench 375 x 10 every single time someone asks you to. You can probably progress a little easier like this and you won't see any insane fluctuations in strength. Chad Wesley Smith, a world famous PLer and creator of the Juggernaut Method, preached this a lot. He talked about never going into a training session overly stimulated. He would be calm cool and collected and squat. Moving his number up progressively each week like clockwork.

I just wanted to hear your viewpoint on this. I know a couple other BBer guys (one I follow on Instagram) who always mentions how intense his sessions are and how insanely crazy he has to get on Loading Sets. One of my main problems last year using FT was being TOO stimulated where I was justttt trying to hit numbers rather than feeling the muscle all while beating my log book. Cool, I could hit 375x10 on incline bench, but I was flailing my body the whole time. I had similar troubles when I was younger running DC blasts and had to stop. And this was when I hit the pause button, checked my ego like Jordan, and slowed everything down.

I know im basically answering my own question, but I feel like this is a major problem that programs focusing on progressive overload run into. Progressive overload seems to be preached to the younger and intermediate lifting crowd (the easiest periodization), but understanding this problem AND finding a solution has come over time, with age and acquired knowledge. Something only the seasoned lifter would understand, ya know? I hope my explanation wasn't too long winded and confusing haha

Just wanted to know your thoughts!

(08-22-2018, 07:25 AM)Scott Stevenson Wrote: Great topic!

So, a few thoughts here:

There's an inverse U relationship between performance and arousal (at least for most things, it's hypothesized). In short, there is an optimal level of arousal for a given task, such that too much or too little and performance is worse. This is to some degree a function what one is doing, the level of skill required for the task and the skill level of the performer.

If the talk is highly skillful, requiring fine motor skills, enough arousal to be focused, but not bouncing off the walls is appropriate. (Note here that I'm simplifying things in a way that assume some linear level of arousal upon which some tasks lie, but there more to it, which I'll address below).

For Something like a deadlift, where there is actually substantial skill, but a requirement for central disinhibition for maximal performance, a high arousal level is more appropriate for many people.

The thing about bodybuilding is that the skill of training should and does manifest in heavier loads, but ultimately, lies in performing exercises to tax the muscle. The rep and weight goals are simply dangling carrots to drive the horse forward, with the assumption (that gets violated when your are too aroused), that the training is being done such that form and target muscle activation is not compromised for greater reps a/o load.

So, the undesireable outcome from being overly aroused, moving more weight (but in a way that doesn't further the muscular stimulus) is that performance gains are (as you say) a function of arousal level and "Poor" form that requires you use more momentum, accessory muscles, etc. in a way that moves the weight but without further taxing the muscle. This can lead to rapid plateauing and taxing other systems of the body (not the muscular system) relatively more so.

Everyone's a bit different and this is a function of skill, which can be fine-tuned with visualization, verbal anchors, coaching from the outside, etc.

Someone who has a visualization routine (mental practice) focused on seeing, feeling and sensing in as many ways possible how the target muscle will feel during a perfect set, and can keep to that focus under great levels of arousal, will create a really potent stimulus. The visualzation could be (I do this one) actually imagining the set as it proceeds, rep by rep to the goal reps, and what kind of pain and effort will come with that, down to every last detail. This is like a walk-through of the set, such that it is quite obvious when actually doing the training if one has wavered, and is getting sloppy with form or what have you.

So, specific to you and PL'ing, there's also the nuance that different exercises require different level of "neural drive" in the bodybuilding world, but the big 3 all require the entire body is engaged and that one let's loose of the governor as much as possible. Ideally, exercise form (skill) is honed for those three exercises, such that that can be done somewhat safely. (It's like launching an RPG - a highly skilled shooter can fire with precision but without the accuracy that comes with years of practice, letting loose with a grenade like that (getting fully amped up) runs a higher risk of injury.)

Try to train during many bodybuidling exercises with that "big 3 powerlifter" mentality and it's overkill and may not optimize stress on the muscle (vs. other systems).

Back to bodybuidling - the skill isn't in performing just a relatively few number of exercise (big 3), but rather in performing exercises such that the target muscle limits performance and being able to do this will any exercises one chooses (not that exercise selection isn't important). So, the skill set in bodybuilding, when highly tuned, is being able to decimate the target muscle when training it, and of course picking exercises that make that as effective as possible.

The mental "intensity" or intensity of effort can be very high with bodybuidling, but it is of a different nature than full blown powerlifting max efforts, in that one has a differnt objective and relies upon different feedback (internal sensory info as much as proprioceptive info about whether or not the weight is moving).

When someone is highly advanced, then, they can go bonkers and still have optimal activation (like maybe someone you follow on IG), and this comes with time, of course, too. One might learn for instance (this has been my tendency) that rep TEMPO is super important for maintaining the "mind-muscle" connection: Get too amped up for a set and start trying to bang through reps as fast as possible (purely for the sake of being the log book) and this is a recipe for poor training that can shift the relative stress away form the muscle and onto the CNS (and other systems) in a way that can rapidly propel you towards overreaching. So, one thing that I have to plant in to my head for big sets is that I need to keep the rep tempo moderate. (You may have noticed that you can get more reps on most exercsies simply from doing them faster... )

So, those are some thoughts for ya.

-S

(08-22-2018, 07:49 AM)TheOtherOne55 Wrote: Ahhh, amazing answer Scott.

And that's kinda what I have done with my loading sets and is probably the reason why I am crushing my log book every week now. My reps are slow and controlled—basically like watching you and Dusty Hanshaw execute each and every lift.

If I wanted to BO Row 405, I could. But my reps would be all over the place, trying to slang the weight. My lower back would kick in too much as I try to get momentum going. I'd rather really focus on 315 and move the weight in a controlled fashion so I can hit the muscles I'm trying to focus on.
Thanks for the thoughts Scott. I'm a big analysis guy and I love hearing your thought process when you answer questions.