(02-03-2017, 11:39 PM)Altamir Wrote: So another programming question Scott, a minor one (I think).

Situation is as follows.

I train loading back to back Saturday (Lower) and Sunday (Upper) AM. Next session is lower focused MRs on Tuesday PM. Issue is I'm noticing fairly significant fatigue, especially in my legs, Tuesdays still for Lower MRs. Obviously as the blasts progress it gets worse. Granted I'm still hitting PRs. Mentally however I seem to be a bit zapped, just not the same gusto for attacking the weights. Where as Saturdays/Sundays/Thursdays ( which is upper focused MRs) attitude is spot on. I made the following adjustments (based on a bunch of issues I was having), and I'm seeing things improve, but it's still noticeable.

- Went from 6 week blasts to 4 weeks. I noticed improved recovery, strength increases, and training drive.
- Went from basic to turbo, to space out leg volume away from Tuesdays, and to keep the day sort of "fresh" mentally". I seem to enjoy the one set and onto the next rhythm of turbo. Again noticed improved recovery, strength increases, and training drive.
- Reduced leg tier. Went from running tiers 1/2/2/2/2/3 to 1/1/2/2. Same benefits as above.

So my options as I see them,

- Deal with it. I am very well aware, I am creating quite a debt by running back to back loading days. I've done my best to mitigate it, but it just may always be there. I can and have pushed through it. It's just the nature of the beast of running a higher frequency program.
- Reduce leg tier further. perhaps 1/1/1/2 or just tier 1 straight through. I'm a little mixed on this. I'm having really good success across the board with legs right now as far as hitting PRs, They are getting stronger and seem to be growing. I also REALLY enjoy lower pumps for tier 2, because it's awful, and it was bad enough cutting back as much as I have.
- Increase calories on Saturday and Sunday. I'm already eating a lot. I'm in the middle of a growing phase, and the ratio of fat to muscle gain is just about where I am happy to see it. Some muscle, some fat, but nothing awful. So I'm a little hesitant to add too much more until I feel I'm ready.

So at this point I'm sort of leaning towards "deal with it". Just wanted to bounce this off of you, Case I'm missing something obvious (or not to obvious) that may help. Thanks for your insight!

(02-04-2017, 12:22 AM)Scott Stevenson Wrote: Hey Brutha!

So, I think you're on the right track in trying to improve recovery after the Sat/Sun sessions with more food. You might also try a big NAP on Sunday if that wouldn't interfere with sleeping Sunday night.

A few things I'm interested in:

• How stressful is your job?
• How much activity - just walking around, etc do you do on Monday & Tuesday before you train. (For some folks who literally are doing next to nothing with a desk job, this can make the next training day a bit tough to get into as far as working out the kinks.)

• How important is TIME of day for you as far as training energy. This could be a big one and makes me wonder if even training in the AM on Tues might be a better choice.

(02-04-2017, 12:22 AM)Scott Stevenson Wrote: And as far as programming, have you tried this

Sat: Day 2 (Loading Upper, lower Pump)
Sun: Day 1 (Loading Lower, Upper Pump)

Tues: Day 4 (Upper MR's)

Thurs: Day 3 (lower MR's)

This would address a couple of the issues that may be in play here all at once (Upper MR's being easier than Lower on the CNS, in the context of Loading Set days grouped together on the weekend; legs being especially sedentary d/t working conditions).

I know you really annihilate yourself with the Pump sets, so you might need to adjust strategy there if you adopt the above strategy, or perhaps even <gasp> use a different Tier for Lower Pump Sets since this training would be just 24hr before your Loading Sets for legs.

This is a stretch, but a thought. I think this order of leg training (Pump first, the Loading) might be advantageous b/c, depending upon diet and the extent of muscle damage you're incurring, this would avoid a situation where you're possibly coming up a bit short in terms of recovering glycogen. *IF* you happen to have enough muscle damage to significantly impair glycogen formation and you're really using up a good bit of your stores with SUNDAY Pump Sessions (That you really kick ass on, thus causing a good bit of glycogen loss), then you've got a double whammy preceding your Tuesday workout with your current week's layout.

Flip this around and the glycogen loss form the pump sets in and of itself shouldn't be as much of an issue for the Loading sets b/c the reps are lower (relative contribution from CP vs. glycogen is greater here) and you may even be able to get those loading sets in on Sunday (24hr after the Pump sets) before the DOMS of the pump sets hits you full force (which can be more like ~48hr post workout, but this varies a good bit). And then, of course, after you've survived the weekend, you've got a full 4 days before you hit the Lower MR's.

[And of course you could use a TURBO set up with the above flip flopping of days and then you'd have lesser inroad into your legs on Thurs, which woudl leave you more recovered for the Weekend's trauma compared to putting all of your Lower MR's on that day (just 48hr before your weekend's fun). So, the above Day 2,1,4,3 ordering with a Turbo set up might be your best bet, and you might even have the sense that that is the case already, given how much experience you have with FT. ]

-Scott

(02-04-2017, 01:59 AM)Altamir Wrote: - I nap both Saturdays and Sundays. I train about 7am and by 11am I'm dragging. Usually hit it hard for about 20minutes and I'm wide awake and good to go for the rest of the day. Does not effect my sleep at night.
- My job is extremely unstressful. Desk jockey, and it can be a bit hectic at times, but for the most part is really easy. I am in the process of working on getting a transition desk (going from sitting to standing and back again).
- Nothing too crazy, usually a walk with the dogs or some random chores on Sunday after training. Monday and Tuesday is very little activity, just work. I do spend time each morning after getting up stretching, finding tight spots, working out little kinks and niggles, and doing a little rotator cuff and hip pre-hab (getting older sucks). And run through the relaxed and mandatories for posing practice, since we finally got full height mirrors in the basement. I'd say roughly 20mins of moderate / light activity.
- Training time makes zero difference for me. Been training weekends in the morning, and weekdays in the evening for many many years now, long before FT. So as long as things are good overall, I can just get some good tunes banging over the headphones, flip the switch, and go to war.


Brillant. I've got one week left of my current blast, so I'll try and implement it for the next one and give it a go. I had originally set it up this way as I was still having chronic shoulder pain / issues, and saw the upper pump sets as a way to "pre-fatigue" my upper body for loading. Shoulder has been pain free for long awhile now, and getting stronger, so this is a good time to experiment.

DOMs from pump sets usually set in that day. I am mildly sore in my legs from loading, and then after pump sets my legs feel like dead weight for most of the day, sore, stiff, and sluggish. Usually gone by Monday. No way to tell, except to do it!

And bingo with sticking with turbo and further spreading out the damage. I'm really enjoying that aspect of it. I've never been great a recovery, but seem to be really good and pushing myself into big holes I cannot recover from. So this still makes a lot of sense to me with this set up.

Anyways as always thank you for the insight, guidance, and lesson on not only WHAT do to but WHY to do it. Cannot express how much I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. The wife will be happy too as we both train lower on Saturdays and sometimes fight for equipment. So that will solve that. I'll report back in probably about 4 weeks or so with how things are going, so that people can see the results from this. (and allow me to reflect on it myself)

(02-05-2017, 12:08 AM)Scott Stevenson Wrote: The pleasure is mine, my man. Glad to be of help to you especially b/c I know how much effort you put into figuring things out (not to mention training like a madman).

I'd be interested in which kind of transition desk you come up with. I'm suggesting this to a good number of folks these days. It's the NEAT thing to do.

And I hear you about DOMS settling in right off the bat post-workout. Some part of the repeated bout effect (2nd time around with a damaging exercise protocol diminishes the extent of damage and DOMS) also seems to be a shift in the time course of DOMS, I've found, although this is really kind of tough to pick out in the research (esp. b/c there is so much variability). John Meadows never gets or and I'm sore all the time. Some of this comes down to diet, etc, too, but I find this pretty dang fascinating... (Reminds me to look more deeply into this to find insights into some other questions I have.)

An interesting feature here is that, at least in initially untrained persons, doing one bout that causes extended soreness (for 4-5 days) is not impacted by doing another bout just a couple days after the 1st bout. There's no additive effect, such the that second bout causes the DOMS to be prolonged or increases... LOL

-S

(02-07-2017, 02:03 AM)Altamir Wrote: haha. I do my best to train with "controlled insanity", at least from my perspective (probably just insane from others)

I will probably be getting something VERY close to this.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01KU4N4L2?psc=1
I'm pretty lucky as my work will order it for me and foot the bill. Quite a few people have already got them and seem to like them.

Quote:And I've never gotten DOMs quite in the way that I get DOMs with FT. With whole body training and the frequency the soreness seems to "settle" over me. Working from one part of the body to the other as the day progresses. Chest is always last. Shoulders and arms always first, back seems to stick with me the longest. It's strange (though as you said DOMs is overall), but it's sort of useful. For example, I know a did a KILLER job on my bicep and tricep pump sets on upper pump day, if I get DOMs in them on upper loading the very next day, just from the compound lifts.

and I sometimes, but not really, miss newbie DOMs. I need to be able to function

(02-24-2017, 07:48 AM)GavinEBP Wrote: Scott,

I have been doing your program for probably 2 cycles now. I love it and it has definitely been much more optimal for me especially as a student. I've read the book several times over but I still feel I haven't found exact answers for questions unless I happen to skim over them too often.

With regards to training volume, even with the volume tiers in mind, for certain body parts such as arms for instance, do you feel you could benefit from increased weekly volume? Maybe add a couple heavy sets for both biceps and triceps on upper load. Maybe some extra pump work on the lower load day. And I know on the MR days it's biceps one day triceps the other, would there be benefit to doing both on these days?

Quote:Also I have been recovering well and strength goes up week to week/cycle to cycle, but these also relates to my first question with regards to added training volume. For body parts you're trying to bring up, like for me is quads and chest. If I'm still progressing and recovering well, would adding extra intensity techniques into the week be detrimental? Like for instance on lower load, let's say in my rotation I have barbell squats one week. Alot of times lately I feel I'm going to fail by rep 12 on my last set(I'm on T3 turbo btw) but I end up failing beyond 12, ex last time was 335 for 15 reps on squats. Would it be too taxing on CNS to apply widow maker sets on certain exercises in rotations or possibly on upper body load days implement rest pause on certain exercises where I can easily do such sets(ie hammer strength incline chest press and do RP sets on my last set of my load sets just to increase overall volume and intensity).

Quote:Am I possibly trying to do too much? I know everyone's ability to recover is different and what I can recover from might be over kill for someone else. Just trying to maximize my offseason but also not overdo it. And not to bastardize your program either, hence the question about overdoing it haha