+- Integrative Bodybuilding (http://drscottstevenson.com/forum)
+-- Forum: Fortitude Training - The Forum (http://drscottstevenson.com/forum/forum-53.html)
+--- Forum: Fortitude Training™ - Program Info, Basics, Testimonals (http://drscottstevenson.com/forum/forum-54.html)
+--- Thread: 3 week blasts? (/thread-1127.html)
3 week blasts? - nordan - 06-19-2018
Hi Scott or anyone else.. Altamir could fit the bill as I am aware you also cruise quite early into a blast.
I seem to only be lasting around three weeks into my blast before not only loving the idea of a cruise but getting slightly joints and some days preferring my rest days, lounging about doing nothing on an evening rather than training. I love the idea of a cruise, I am getting better and better at auto regulating but unsure if I am utilising these cruise periods earlier than I should be to warrant any real benefit ?
In terms of my tier I am running tier 1 basic.. I used to run tier 2 turbo exclusively but then switched to tier 2 basic after a year or so. I then switched down to tier 1 after a few months as I just prefer doing the higher rep ranges as I feel they are more fun, and appealing?
Every time I cruised I used to enjoy looking at the book (as sometimes I forget) and seeing it was pump sets instead of MR's and loading so I decided to try tier 1 for a few blasts. Again, this could be because I have subconsciously lost the desire to train and that I am again subconsciously trying to keep it as fun as possible if that makes sense. Note that I go to absolute town on these sets and by the end of them I am barely even performing a pulse because the ROM is around 1-2mm.
Anyway, three week blasts.. whats your take? Or whats your take on my situation? Could it be the case that I am genuinely warranted a cruise due to training intensity? Bare in mind that because I am solely using tier 1 that the majority of my sets are to failure aside from day 1 calves and day 2 back, aside from that everything is an RPE 9.5-10.
Notes on diet. I tend to eat more on training days and less on rest days so essentially have high and low days as I just love to eat and feel that training days warrant the additional food.
Could my rest day (low days) be hampering my recovery capabilities which is why I am wanting to cruise so early in a blast? I don't typically ache in regards to DOMS.
RE: 3 week blasts? - croupier - 06-19-2018
Hi there,
not Scott nor Altamir (nor any one else of the big guys here).
I started not too long ago with Fortitude Training (FT) and I found myself in the same situation. The more I practice the total body training, the more strenuous it becomes and the shorter seems to be the ideal Blast phase.
Since Scott in his book recommends a specific blast:cruise ratio of 3:1, I suspect that 3 wks blast : 1 wk cruise ratio is fine. At the end of the year if you blast for 6 wks and cruise for 2, you accumulate the exact same workload that you would if you blast for 3 wks and cruise for 1.
Furthermore, for what is worth since I am mr nobody on this board compared to Scott, Altamir and other fellas, I found also that my body responds better and the mind-muscle connection is sharper if the volume of training (TIER) decreases slightly throughout the three weeks blast to accomodate the overlap of fatigue.
Also a change of tier between the Load exercises and the pump exercises within the same session seems to help.
BTW I can't wait for Scott's answer!
RE: 3 week blasts? - Altamir - 06-19-2018
Scott is probably going to give you some good insight here, but I'll take a stab and maybe save him some time in typing. Or get a conversation going at least
So a few things really stand out to me personally reading your post. So I have a few questions, and take this as helpful questions/comments and in no way criticism.
After 3 weeks do you feel like if you went to the gym you'd be unable to hit PRs? Are you looking at any other symptoms of over reaching beyond a desire to take a rest? Sleep disruption or loss of appetite, etc? In addition, how bad are your joints hurting after 3 weeks? Has this always been common? To me personally this seems like if your joints are hurting after 3 weeks, it's pretty soon. There could be an issue with the lifts you are choosing, and they do not work biomechanically for you. Or possibly, the method in which you are lifting may be too ballistic or loose in nature, and would benefit from some form adjusting.
Do you have any additional indications about this "subconsciously lost desire to train, or do things only for fun" besides a hunch? This I'm not sure anyone can help you with besides your own internal gut check. From your post it seems like you are really training damn hard. But might be a personal question you need to really ask yourself. As well as what your goals are. If you are getting out of training what you want, then what you are putting in may be wholly and completely appropriate.
As far as food goes, hard to tell without knowing exactly what your food is between day to day. Is the gap big? small? Do you feel like you are really hungry on off days? Do you feel like you are more or less recovering between days. I know I am personally experimenting with a reverse diet where I am adding in food only around training right now, and at times it for sure is a challenge, but I can say soundly, that maybe 12 hours after training I feel VERY hungry, and not so fresh, but 36 hours later I'm feeling much more sated and better.
All of this being said, given that recovery is on a personal and on a sliding scale. Cruising at 3 weeks may be just what you need. I also know a host of people who train one on, one off for FT and found that really helps. So a day off in between every training day, instead of two days being back to back has helped them sustain a blast longer and feels more productive.
For myself, since you mentioned. I typically cruise after 4 weeks, but mostly that has to do with lifts either stalling, or regressing slightly, or I can feel my intensity and training desire start to dip. Rarely is it due to joint issues or injury. I have in the past pushed to 5 and even 6 week blasts, but always felt those last week or two were not completely, but somewhat unproductive at the gym. Also, that the longer cruises left me feeling slow to start. I may cruise a bit sooner that most people would prefer. I just personally found it better to bow out of a blast with my training at a 7 or 8 out of 10. And then roll into a cruise week hitting 9's and start my next blast at a 10. Then go longer and have my training sitting at a 5, through my cruise it being 6's and 7's and starting my the first half of the first week of my blast at 8's and only really getting into a good groove until after that.
Anyway, Lots of rambling here, which I tend to do. Hope some of this helps or gets you in the right direction.
Interested in hearing back and of course what the Doctor himself has to say.
RE: 3 week blasts? - Scott Stevenson - 06-20-2018
I suspect a few people are expecting me to post a mini-novella here in response, but first things first:
Nordan - What are your goals (long and short-term) and are you progressing towards them (physique / body comp. wise and in terms of gym performance / strength?...)
(If you're not making good progress, then that can definitely knock down your enthusiasm for training... So, let's start with that.
)-Scott
RE: 3 week blasts? - Altamir - 06-20-2018
(06-20-2018, 01:25 AM)Pumped340 Wrote: I think Altamir basically covered it. I like the idea of 3 blast 1 cruise personally. I just finished my 5th week straight and definitely feeling the need for my cruise soon.
Altamir, when you do 4 or 5 weeks how long is your intensive cruise? I just don't like the idea of having a non-weekly schedule like a 5 day intensive cruise where you're then trying to lift for 2/3 of that time (I guess 2 MR workouts in the first 3 days?) and then you get started with your next blast in the middle of the week, it's awkward from a timing standpoint. Personally I prefer to keep things clean cut in that regard. Even if I did 4 or 5 weeks I'd probably still do a 1 week intensive cruise to make things work in that way.
**Note** when I say I don't like it I don't mean because it's not a good method. Scott made it that way for a reason. It just makes it hard from a scheduling standpoint and I find the rotation changing midweek to be awkward personally. I usually only have 3-4 specific days per week I can workout.
Hey! So unless Scott wants me to answer here (which I am happy to), I'll answer over in my log as I don't want to high jack nordan's thread. and clutter up his communication with Scott with my stuff.
RE: 3 week blasts? - nordan - 06-20-2018
(06-19-2018, 09:30 PM)Altamir Wrote: After 3 weeks do you feel like if you went to the gym you'd be unable to hit PRs?
Still hitting PR's, not regressing based on the log book.
(06-19-2018, 09:30 PM)Altamir Wrote: Are you looking at any other symptoms of over reaching beyond a desire to take a rest? Sleep disruption or loss of appetite, etc? In addition, how bad are your joints hurting after 3 weeks?
No sleep disruption and I do pretty well here, if I didnt set an alarm I can easily hit 11-12 hours lol
. I have always been someone who sleeps a lot, even prior to training which was 8+ years ago. Joint wise it has only really come to my attention this week, doing a lat pulldown on warm up, my joints felt a little meh so I took it upon my own to avoid back on that particular day (upper MR's). I really injured myself at the latter end of last year by not listening to my body and adopting that "suck it up, no one cares, work harder" mindset. I think we talked about it in a post a while back about having a bad rebound as I lost a tonne of muscle and put on loads of fat as it was just after a contest prep. Lost around 2 years worth of progress lol.(06-19-2018, 09:30 PM)Altamir Wrote: There could be an issue with the lifts you are choosing, and they do not work bio mechanically for you.
You could be right on this one, my shoulders suck so much.. I've broken them, torn them, you name it, they've done it. After the most recent injury, and for the last 10 months I haven't really done much overhead work, purely because I don't feel confident pressing in case I injure myself again. I simply cannot progress after a certain point (weight), its not a mindset issue its just my shoulder joints and tendons feel strained at said weight, so because of this I really don't train much overhead work and have stuck predominantly to side raises in all forms, cables, db's etc.
(06-19-2018, 09:30 PM)Altamir Wrote: Or possibly, the method in which you are lifting may be too ballistic or loose in nature, and would benefit from some form adjusting.
I could see this being an serious issue but it isn't applicable as I have a standardised form which is strict. Soon as that form breaks down the sets over.
(06-19-2018, 09:30 PM)Altamir Wrote: Do you have any additional indications about this "subconsciously lost desire to train, or do things only for fun" besides a hunch? This I'm not sure anyone can help you with besides your own internal gut check. From your post it seems like you are really training damn hard. But might be a personal question you need to really ask yourself. As well as what your goals are. If you are getting out of training what you want, then what you are putting in may be wholly and completely appropriate.
Could be down to the lack of exercise selection, with my said issue above I obviously have a limited amount of exercises to choose from in regards to loading, no heavy shoulder work (pressing, upright rows), bench just feels off and my mind to muscle connection is so shit its embarrassing and this is reflected on my chest development. For this reason alone I stick to the chest press (machine) as I feel 8 times out of 10 I can engage the chest properly, not only this but everything seems to tie in with one another.. weak shoulders = weak bench, db pressing etc
(06-19-2018, 09:30 PM)Altamir Wrote: As far as food goes, hard to tell without knowing exactly what your food is between day to day. Is the gap big? small? Do you feel like you are really hungry on off days? Do you feel like you are more or less recovering between days. I know I am personally experimenting with a reverse diet where I am adding in food only around training right now, and at times it for sure is a challenge, but I can say soundly, that maybe 12 hours after training I feel VERY hungry, and not so fresh, but 36 hours later I'm feeling much more sated and better.
So I am around 163lbs, contest prep ended at 154, lost around 4lb's due to injury and have slowly added the 13lb's over 8 months, slow and steady in order to keep fat gains in check. Calories have been 3200 training and 2400 rest but felt fat was piling on quicker than desired so dropped back to around 2700-2800 training and 1800-2000 rest days. I guesstimate maintenance to be around 2400 approx.
I measured myself the other day and have gained absolutely nothing in terms of muscle, maybe half an inch on quads and the like elsewhere, possibly some more on chest but for the amount of fat gained I think it has been around 50:50 ratio at a push, possible 40:60 in favour of fat. So this certainly disheartened me a little bit.
For this reason alone I embarked on a small mini cut, which was around 3-4 weeks. I dropped down to 158 but my appetite is just unmanageable and still is as we speak, 3 weeks post mini cut that I am back to 163 and probably in worse condition, I would say that it has resulted in me bingeing, eating shit, and tbh its worse now than it was post contest, not good. I am cruising now so have brought my calories up to maintenance but again tonight I've fucked it and eaten a slice of cheesecake, dipped my hands into a box of granola, which we all know is ridiculously moreish. I would say this alone has added 300-400 calories just today.
(06-19-2018, 09:30 PM)Altamir Wrote: All of this being said, given that recovery is on a personal and on a sliding scale. Cruising at 3 weeks may be just what you need. I also know a host of people who train one on, one off for FT and found that really helps. So a day off in between every training day, instead of two days being back to back has helped them sustain a blast longer and feels more productive.
I actually do do this, train 1 on 1 off with the exception of MR's where I have to do both days back to back.. I prefer this as I have done both loading days back to back and just haven't recovered in time for the second session, it also leaves me written off as expected.
I used to do exclusively 6 week blasts and cruise for two as that what is kind of what to aim for based on the book, I like you mention struggled to come back at a 9-10 out of 10 effort wise and desire wise upon returning to the blast so the rebound was non existent and again I just couldn't really be arsed, felt that the cruise didn't do a lot in the grand scheme of things and could quite frankly take another 2 week cruise lol.
Your answers and questions have been pretty in depth and I totally appreciate the effort you took to write all this out. Hopefully this will give you a better picture. Also, everyone else that commented, thanks for the input, I will reply in due course!
RE: 3 week blasts? - nordan - 06-20-2018
(06-20-2018, 12:36 AM)Scott Stevenson Wrote: I suspect a few people are expecting me to post a mini-novella here in response, but first things first:
Nordan - What are your goals (long and short-term) and are you progressing towards them (physique / body comp. wise and in terms of gym performance / strength?...)
(If you're not making good progress, then that can definitely knock down your enthusiasm for training... So, let's start with that.
-Scott
Hi Scott, thanks for the reply.
My goal is to gain some serious muscle, and I have set myself out to be in a caloric surplus for an extended amount of time, I am aiming for 1 to 2 years at a push which is why I am utilising the slow and steady approach (0.25 - .5lb max per week) rather than gaining 1-2lbs a week approach. I used to get contest ready (natural) every year but felt the improvements made in the time being off-season weren't good enough, which is probably down to spending too little time gaining, getting scared I was too fat and then dieting down, repeat. I say all this and these different phrases as if I am a competitive bodybuilder but it is purely just to look good due to being bullied for the way I looked at school (over 10-12 years ago now) but it still unfortunately has had an everlasting effect. Of course I love my training and I am so passionate about it, its like a huge part of my life.. If I don't train I start going crazy and feel lost LOL.
Progress wise, for the amount of fat that I feel I have gained amongst my midsection I was kind of hoping for some bigger measurements upon measuring. In my response to Altamir above I mention only gaining .75- 1 inch at a push on my thighs, which I don't know if that's good for such a small increase in weight (10lbs approx). You're probably thinking "geez, what's this guy expecting, 5+ inches?". Tbh no, not 5 inches that's realistically impossible lol but I was hoping more so around 1.25-1.5. This is probably a body part which has grown noticeably if that makes sense, hence why I decided to measure it. Upon reflection and finding out it was so minimal, you can bet that I didn't measure anything else purely because I would feel disheartened and let down, so I did myself a favour mentally and didn't bother.
I am a numbers guy so I have a certain number in mind which I want my body parts to hit, regardless if it looks good/massive to other people at a certain measurement or not if it aint hit that number then it isn't good enough to me.
Bodybuilding, its very much a mental game and tbh a game that I have been losing for 8 years.. I still absolutely love it regardless though even though times it gets me down, like having to take time off, injuries, motivation slumps etc. I am just trying to figure out whats up so I can revitalise my love for the game.
(06-20-2018, 01:25 AM)Pumped340 Wrote: I think Altamir basically covered it. I like the idea of 3 blast 1 cruise personally. I just finished my 5th week straight and definitely feeling the need for my cruise soon.
Altamir, when you do 4 or 5 weeks how long is your intensive cruise? I just don't like the idea of having a non-weekly schedule like a 5 day intensive cruise where you're then trying to lift for 2/3 of that time (I guess 2 MR workouts in the first 3 days?) and then you get started with your next blast in the middle of the week, it's awkward from a timing standpoint. Personally I prefer to keep things clean cut in that regard. Even if I did 4 or 5 weeks I'd probably still do a 1 week intensive cruise to make things work in that way.
**Note** when I say I don't like it I don't mean because it's not a good method. Scott made it that way for a reason. It just makes it hard from a scheduling standpoint and I find the rotation changing midweek to be awkward personally. I usually only have 3-4 specific days per week I can workout.
I agree with you here, I hate having to end my cruise mid week. It screws everything up timing wise, this could be a reason mentally why I prefer to do 3 or 6 weeks as it gives you a bang on 1 week or 2 week cruise.
RE: 3 week blasts? - nordan - 06-20-2018
(06-19-2018, 09:11 PM)croupier Wrote: Hi there,
not Scott nor Altamir (nor any one else of the big guys here).
I started not too long ago with Fortitude Training (FT) and I found myself in the same situation. The more I practice the total body training, the more strenuous it becomes and the shorter seems to be the ideal Blast phase.
Since Scott in his book recommends a specific blast:cruise ratio of 3:1, I suspect that 3 wks blast : 1 wk cruise ratio is fine. At the end of the year if you blast for 6 wks and cruise for 2, you accumulate the exact same workload that you would if you blast for 3 wks and cruise for 1.
Furthermore, for what is worth since I am mr nobody on this board compared to Scott, Altamir and other fellas, I found also that my body responds better and the mind-muscle connection is sharper if the volume of training (TIER) decreases slightly throughout the three weeks blast to accomodate the overlap of fatigue.
Also a change of tier between the Load exercises and the pump exercises within the same session seems to help.
BTW I can't wait for Scott's answer!
Thanks for the input dude, one big family here and everyone's input is extremely valued and beneficial to one another!
RE: 3 week blasts? - Scott Stevenson - 06-21-2018
(06-20-2018, 06:18 AM)nordan Wrote: Hi Scott, thanks for the reply.
My goal is to gain some serious muscle
You're welcome!
<sarcasm here>
Have you thought about just trying to gain some silly muscle, instead?...
<sarcasm off>
So, this is a very important issue here, as your goals are not really concrete: They are nebulous to some degree and thus don't give you any specific direction in which to move.
If you want to get to Canada from Florida, knowing your latitude is very important: You may travel east or west along the route, but if you're not moving North overall, you're not moving in the direction of success.
So, as far as goals go, I recommend that they include the following:
What: Strength, muscle mass (from body comp), etc.
How: Strategies, which is what this threads about (Are 3 week blasts OK?)
When / Where: What's the TIMELINE for reaching this goal?
HOW measured: This is the kicker here, too.
So, as far as goals for you, you might set a goal for gaining 15lb of muscle mass / fat free mass (and perhaps some circumference goals as those seem important to you) and use body composition estimates to evaluate when you have reached that amount of FFM.
You'd then know you're zeroing in on that goal when you've reached perhaps 20lb of FFM (which could take several years), accounting for the loss of some FFM when dieting off whatever fat you've gained.
IMPORTANT: IF you've not gained X (goal) amount of muscle (FFM) during the off-season, you can't expect to have it at the end of a diet.
Quote: and I have set myself out to be in a caloric surplus for an extended amount of time, I am aiming for 1 to 2 years at a push which is why I am utilising the slow and steady approach (0.25 - .5lb max per week) rather than gaining 1-2lbs a week approach. I used to get contest ready (natural) every year but felt the improvements made in the time being off-season weren't good enough, which is probably down to spending too little time gaining, getting scared I was too fat and then dieting down, repeat. I say all this and these different phrases as if I am a competitive bodybuilder but it is purely just to look good due to being bullied for the way I looked at school (over 10-12 years ago now) but it still unfortunately has had an everlasting effect. Of course I love my training and I am so passionate about it, its like a huge part of my life.. If I don't train I start going crazy and feel lost LOL.
So having a goal body comp / FFM / Muscle mass and objective measures of this will give you perspective on the long haul. Are you gaining that FFM, perhaps in step-wise fashion, over the course of the blasts / cutting cycles or just taking two steps forward and two steps back overall?
Quote:Progress wise, for the amount of fat that I feel I have gained amongst my midsection I was kind of hoping for some bigger measurements upon measuring. In my response to Altamir above I mention only gaining .75- 1 inch at a push on my thighs, which I don't know if that's good for such a small increase in weight (10lbs approx). You're probably thinking "geez, what's this guy expecting, 5+ inches?". Tbh no, not 5 inches that's realistically impossible lol but I was hoping more so around 1.25-1.5. This is probably a body part which has grown noticeably if that makes sense, hence why I decided to measure it. Upon reflection and finding out it was so minimal, you can bet that I didn't measure anything else purely because I would feel disheartened and let down, so I did myself a favour mentally and didn't bother.
Circumference measures are probably my least favorite as they don't differentiate muscle from fat. I'd rather see at least a skin fold along the line of girth measurement to get an idea of how that component of circumference is changing.
Quote:I am a numbers guy so I have a certain number in mind which I want my body parts to hit, regardless if it looks good/massive to other people at a certain measurement or not if it aint hit that number then it isn't good enough to me.
Bodybuilding, its very much a mental game and tbh a game that I have been losing for 8 years.. I still absolutely love it regardless though even though times it gets me down, like having to take time off, injuries, motivation slumps etc. I am just trying to figure out whats up so I can revitalise my love for the game.
So, it does sound like you've got some specific circumference measures in mind and I'm talking about getting even more detailed with the numbers, so hopefully this resonates with you.
There are several sites that have outlined ideal relative girth measurements and good measures for high level physiques, but this usually assumes a low body fat percentage. So, as I mention above, using circumferences when one's gaining both fat and muscle isn't specific to the goal of getting larger arm, leg, etc. size due to muscle gain.
Quote:I agree with you here, I hate having to end my cruise mid week. It screws everything up timing wise, this could be a reason mentally why I prefer to do 3 or 6 weeks as it gives you a bang on 1 week or 2 week cruise.
So, two options here:
One can simply start a Blast on a day other than Day 1 of the Blast.
If your cruise is supposed to be about 10 days and that means your next day of training would be a Friday, which is typically Day 3 of the program for you, there's no law forbidding you start with Day 3, so you can keep the same weekly schedule in place.
---------
The 3:1 Blast:Cruise ratio is a guideline that seems to work for most folks and is a place to start, but it's not hard n' fast set in stone. I get the STRONG sense that Cruising - TAPERING - in the way i've set it up in FT is an improvement over what I was seeing with DC training (where it was very much up to the person and more guys would regress during the Cruise than I liked seeing), but that doesn't mean it can't be improved, which is what you guys are doing - for you (I hope).
Here's the thing: if you feel really uneasy about shifting the days of the week you do different days of FT because of cruising that is not either 1 or 2 weeks exactly, then doing what makes you feel like you're in your groove makes better sense. If you really like going to a given gym on Saturdays for MRs and can't do that b/c of starting your Blast with Day 1 midweek, then that's going to make training less fun, which is NOT what I want and what will propel gains. Plus, switching your training days around could mean you don't have access to the same equipment in a way you can progress on it.
(I personally would also adjust your Intensive Cruise strategy too, if this means you're shortening your IC to 1 week, i.e., shorten the period of the IC during which you're training / be sure you've got plenty of non-training days at the end of the IC. This would violate the ⅔ - ⅓ "rule" of the IC, but you're already living on the edge, so why not?...
On the other hand, it's OK to do a few more days of MRs if "extending" your cruise to an even 2 weeks makes more sense.)-Scott