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+--- Thread: Selecting the right Tier (/thread-511.html)
Selecting the right Tier - scousedave - 01-07-2016
How do you select your own Tier and is it impacted by exercise selection?
I've been running FT since it was first release and I thought I had a fairly comprehensive understanding of the program (even taking it through 2 contest preps) until the start of this last blast (currently 3 weeks in). Quick summary of the tier experience:
- Tier II Basic and then graduated to Tier II Turbo (stopped this due to tendon issues in both knees and recovery being compromised)
- Moved to Tier III basic under the assumption I needed move volume and knee issue was a frequency problem. I didn't. weights stalled and felt burn out all the time - 4 week blast length.
- Defaulted back to Tier II basic however have recently been noticing recovery is starting to become compromised so moved down to Tier I for this last blast.
Since moving to Tier I I feel like a new man and my workouts don't hammer me into the ground any more and both my loading and MR sets are making massive jumps in weight added each rotation compared to eeking out 5lb increases. However, the more experienced I become with the programme the more I'm realizing that exercise selection can create a 'hardcore' and 'light' version of each tier. For example;
'Hardcore' Tier I Loading Lower (actual last WO)
- Thigh: High box squats
- Quad Iso: Pump close stance leg press only targeting quads
- Ham Iso: Pump stiff legged deadlifts
A light version for example could be substituting leg extensions for the leg press and leg curls for the stiff legged deadlifts.
What are everyone's thoughts on this? I feel I get more out of the lower tiers by not using strictly single joint isolation exercises. How did you settle on your ideal tier and identifying the right exercises for you?
RE: Selecting the right Tier - Altamir - 01-07-2016
I couldn't agree more with your structure of Tier I for legs. It's pretty much how I run it. I try and place all my hardest lifts for MR and pump for tier one, and use compound movements for my quad and hamstring lifts. But exercise selection or intensity techniques on pump sets can make a Tier I more difficult than an "easy" Tier II.
I personally like to do (and have seen good results even before starting FT) from doing sort of wave volume. Progressing from Tier I to Tier III. Most of my blasts go I,II,II,II,II,II,III and then cruise. Tier I is hard, but for me, doesn't feel like the work load is challenging enough. I can certainly put more effort into each set at Tier I. Tier II seems to be my "sweet spot" where I can recover but still progress, the volume and the work load is challenging, but not crushing. Tier III for me is one week only. By then end I'm ready to tap out.
I settled on this, and what lifts, just by playing around with stuff. Looking at what others are doing, Very often I'll take something I'd like to try as a MR, and make it a pump set first. If I like it there it'll graduate up to a MR. As to what type of pump sets, rep ranges, techniques. I just went by what got me the sorest / most pumped. and tried to follow trends. Legs like super high reps, back thickness likes lowerish reps with negatives. Chest pressing likes high reps, shoulders high reps. Just lots of playing around.
RE: Selecting the right Tier - Scott Stevenson - 01-07-2016
Very nice post!
[For folks confused about the term "pump," Dave (the OP) is not talking about doing Pump Sets interspersed with Loading sets. Dave, I think you mean shortened range of motion when you say "pump," eh?...]
I'll leave folks to discuss amongst yourselves, but I will say note that it's quite interesting that you're getting along best at the low end of the volume spectrum, choosing the exercises that are the hardest.
-S
RE: Selecting the right Tier - scousedave - 01-07-2016
(01-07-2016, 09:21 AM)Scott Stevenson Wrote: Very nice post!
[For folks confused about the term "pump," Dave (the OP) is not talking about doing Pump Sets interspersed with Loading sets. Dave, I think you mean shortened range of motion when you say "pump," eh?...]
I'll leave folks to discuss amongst yourselves, but I will say note that it's quite interesting that you're getting along best at the low end of the volume spectrum, choosing the exercises that are the hardest.
-S
Sorry, yes shortened range of motion to focus on a particular muscle group. I think mentally and physically I get a lot more from increasing the leg press by 20kg per rotation rather than 5kg or a couple of reps on the leg extension.
I think it comes from a basis of doing DC where I can really apply myself to a single loading set. On tire II, if I squatted for example, I'd get 210kg (about 460lb) for 9 reps on the first set and then 6 reps on the second but I'd always feel like I'm holding something back. If I dropped the weight on the second set (to get a higher number of reps) I felt like I was always 'guessing' at the load (e.g. do I drop by 10% or 20%?) and would end up with variable increases in my log book each time the exercise cam round, so my first set might jump up by 1-2 reps where my second set might jump by 5-10kg and 1-2 reps.
I think the tenancy is the further up the tiers that I go the more 'fluffy' exercises I tend to add, as I don't know how anyone could keep adding compounds and recover, which seem to impair recovery rather than create any additional benefit. For example, on Tier III my loading sets just seem to come to a grinding halt in terms on weight or rep increases. Perhaps I'm just getting close to my max strength levels and the loads are just hammering me into the ground so 8-10 years ago tier III might have been ideal.
(01-07-2016, 07:02 AM)Altamir Wrote: I couldn't agree more with your structure of Tier I for legs. It's pretty much how I run it. I try and place all my hardest lifts for MR and pump for tier one, and use compound movements for my quad and hamstring lifts. But exercise selection or intensity techniques on pump sets can make a Tier I more difficult than an "easy" Tier II.
I personally like to do (and have seen good results even before starting FT) from doing sort of wave volume. Progressing from Tier I to Tier III. Most of my blasts go I,II,II,II,II,II,III and then cruise. Tier I is hard, but for me, doesn't feel like the work load is challenging enough. I can certainly put more effort into each set at Tier I. Tier II seems to be my "sweet spot" where I can recover but still progress, the volume and the work load is challenging, but not crushing. Tier III for me is one week only. By then end I'm ready to tap out.
I settled on this, and what lifts, just by playing around with stuff. Looking at what others are doing, Very often I'll take something I'd like to try as a MR, and make it a pump set first. If I like it there it'll graduate up to a MR. As to what type of pump sets, rep ranges, techniques. I just went by what got me the sorest / most pumped. and tried to follow trends. Legs like super high reps, back thickness likes lowerish reps with negatives. Chest pressing likes high reps, shoulders high reps. Just lots of playing around.
Yeah I've also found the same with the pump sets and have a tendency to lean towards certain types rep ranges. For legs I go very high reps (30-50) and then still add partials.
RE: Selecting the right Tier - Scott Stevenson - 01-08-2016
(01-07-2016, 09:57 PM)scousedave Wrote: Sorry, yes shortened range of motion to focus on a particular muscle group. I think mentally and physically I get a lot more from increasing the leg press by 20kg per rotation rather than 5kg or a couple of reps on the leg extension.
And I think this will vary by person, too. (I intentionally left this flexibility in there.
Very cool to see you fine tuning as you have.... )I have been finding lately that I can do knee extensions essentially pain free. (I couldn't for years due to patellofemoral pain.) I'm getting some new VMO development from this, actually, so I'm liking them.
Quote:I think it comes from a basis of doing DC where I can really apply myself to a single loading set. On tire II, if I squatted for example, I'd get 210kg (about 460lb) for 9 reps on the first set and then 6 reps on the second but I'd always feel like I'm holding something back. If I dropped the weight on the second set (to get a higher number of reps) I felt like I was always 'guessing' at the load (e.g. do I drop by 10% or 20%?) and would end up with variable increases in my log book each time the exercise cam round, so my first set might jump up by 1-2 reps where my second set might jump by 5-10kg and 1-2 reps.
Well, the idea is to hold back a rep or two until the last loading set, which would be taken to failure. This is in part for practical reasons (getting a bar loaded with 500lb back to the uprights after leaving it on the safeties is difficult when trying to rest between sets ) as well as to increase training volume relative to the neurological stress.
The variable increases aren't that big of a deal, IMO, as long as your'e moving upward.
You'd have to tease out how much to drop for your next loading set and then just use the log book as your guide.
1.) Set your reps (generally in the 6-12 range, but you can narrow that)
2.) Do your best initially to gauge (guess) the right weights to stay in range
3.) Adjust in successive workouts as needed. If you blast past the upper end of your rep range, then that's good!
Quote:I think the tenancy is the further up the tiers that I go the more 'fluffy' exercises I tend to add, as I don't know how anyone could keep adding compounds and recover, which seem to impair recovery rather than create any additional benefit. For example, on Tier III my loading sets just seem to come to a grinding halt in terms on weight or rep increases. Perhaps I'm just getting close to my max strength levels and the loads are just hammering me into the ground so 8-10 years ago tier III might have been ideal.
I think you're talking above specifically about using the exercises you've chosen for Quad and Ham Isolation movement in particular?...
(Not 100% sure I know what you mean by "adding compounds.")
Maybe you're just re-iterating the notion in your first post that your choice of exercises dictates the volume Tier you'll use?...
-S
RE: Selecting the right Tier - scousedave - 01-08-2016
(01-08-2016, 12:35 AM)Scott Stevenson Wrote: I think you're talking above specifically about using the exercises you've chosen for Quad and Ham Isolation movement in particular?...
(Not 100% sure I know what you mean by "adding compounds.")
Maybe you're just re-iterating the notion in your first post that your choice of exercises dictates the volume Tier you'll use?...
-S
Sorry Scott I should of been more clear here and I realise I've bounced around a little rereading things but you are correct in terms of exercise choice dictating volume tier. If I take delts as an example on Tier III for MRs I'm more inclined to use; Smith shoulder press, DB lateral raise and then DB BO raises rather than Smith shoulder press, Upright row and facepulls.
RE: Selecting the right Tier - Scott Stevenson - 01-08-2016
(01-08-2016, 01:21 AM)scousedave Wrote: Sorry Scott I should of been more clear here and I realise I've bounced around a little rereading things but you are correct in terms of exercise choice dictating volume tier. If I take delts as an example on Tier III for MRs I'm more inclined to use; Smith shoulder press, DB lateral raise and then DB BO raises rather than Smith shoulder press, Upright row and facepulls.
Roger that. (No problemo.)
Of course, the muscle round exercise selection at the back end of the week is a way to balance out the "inroads" of the previous (Days 1 and 2) training, too.
The person who does rack deads and weighted chins for Loading sets might use supported DB rows and a cross-cable pulldown as exercises for Muscle Rounds.
-S