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+--- Thread: Some questions (/thread-752.html)
Some questions - ilyan93 - 10-27-2016
1-Is it ok to not use a A, B, C rotation if you want to get strong on a specific lift? In the book it says that you can use the same exercises for MR untill you stall but what about load sets?
2-In lower load day, if i was going to do smith front squats for thigs, romanian deadlifts for hamstrings and sissy smith squats for quads would you still zig-zag or just do each exercise by itself? All the leg ext/curl machines of my gym are at the upper floor.
3-How should i incorporate the wide grip reverse smith press or the close grip bb/smith press into the program? Just use them as one of the load chest exercises or only on pump sets and muscle rounds? My triceps really suck (6,2 tall; high insertions) and i think they will suck even more without any pressing for them. My delts on the other hand respond very well to heavy db laterals-upright rows hybrids. Maybe i could do the tricep instead of shoulder press on upper load day?
Thank you.
RE: Some questions - Scott Stevenson - 10-27-2016
Before addressing any of the below, what are you goals and where do you stand in terms of them?... (E.g., weight, strength levels, %BF, etc.)
(10-27-2016, 10:55 PM)ilyan93 Wrote: 1-Is it ok to not use a A, B, C rotation if you want to get strong on a specific lift? In the book it says that you can use the same exercises for MR untill you stall but what about load sets?
(FYI, this has been addressed a few times, e.g. Couple of questions ! )
You will likely stall very quickly if you try that. FT is a bodybuilding program, not a powerlifting / pure strength training program. You can, however, use variations of a given lift, and still retain some variety. E.g., incline pressing with bands, chains, BB alone, smith, etc.
Quote:2-In lower load day, if i was going to do smith front squats for thigs, romanian deadlifts for hamstrings and sissy smith squats for quads would you still zig-zag or just do each exercise by itself? All the leg ext/curl machines of my gym are at the upper floor.
I would do consider also DB ham curls (on different angled benches), Ham curls with a cable attachment (prone on the floor or on a decline bench, lying opposite of how you wold if using it for dresses).
You could also do somersault squats for quads if you've got the smith machine.
You're going to want to plan out your rotation b/c of these limitations and address it globally.
OR - simply take the stairs. Just be sure to START your rest interval when you've arrived at the respective machine and are actually resting. (This is a great example of why I programmed the rest intervals in such a way.)
Quote:3-How should i incorporate the wide grip reverse smith press or the close grip bb/smith press into the program? Just use them as one of the load chest exercises or only on pump sets and muscle rounds? My triceps really suck (6,2 tall; high insertions) and i think they will suck even more without any pressing for them. My delts on the other hand respond very well to heavy db laterals-upright rows hybrids. Maybe i could do the tricep instead of shoulder press on upper load day?
Wide rev. grip smith would be a chest exercise, but a close grip press a triceps exercise (which aren't trained for loading sets)
It sounds like you've not even done a weeks worth of FT, so I'd encourage you to set up a plan and actually do the training for a Blast before you start manipulating things in the you're suggesting.
If you want more work for triceps, you can simply be sure to including pressing movements for your MRs and Pump sets and perhaps even use a bit of a narrower grip width to ensure overlap there.
Still, I think the key in producing triples growth will be EATING enough to get growth overall and making sure the you "destroy them" with the MR's and pump sets, as well as don't slack on your stretches.
Your questions are good ones and pretty common, too (which says they're not off base). I intentionally build in flexibility in FT so that you could use he finer points of training (exercise selection, Set type, etc.) to adapt the program to your needs vs. using a "blunt hammer" approach by simply doing more of what has not been working (training triceps in place of delts, so to speak). It's not that that isn't a viable option, but if you've been doing that for some time and not making the progress you'd like, then there's a hint in that...
-S
RE: Some questions - ilyan93 - 10-28-2016
Hi Scott and thank you for the detailed response
. I have been training for around 5 years. Im 22 years old, 6,2/188cm tall, weight is around 103kg/225lbs. Bf probably 15-18%.
At the moment doing a brosplit of Chest/delts, back, arms, legs and a light arm day. Im thinking of giving FT training a try, so i ask all these questions to make sure i dont fuck up your program lol.
Some lifts:
Low incline smith press 140kgx8, Inc BB 130kgx3, CGBP 140x6, RDL 180kgx10, BB rows 180kgx8, Smith front squats 150kgx5, Smith overhead press 120kgx6, DB curls 32kgx10, DB laterals 32kgx10 (on the inclines, cgbp and ohp i dont touch the chest nor lockout)
Goal is to get leaner and stronger while mantaining muscle right now. Im not a powerlifter or anything its just that these lifts that i have listed work well for the muscles im training and i dont have many good plate loaded machines for legs (no hack squat or even a 45 degree leg press). I will still try to find some decent lifts for the rotation.
About the not training delts thing: i have done a lot of heavy shoulder presses, its just that i fell i get better results from heavy laterals while for triceps i feel that presses are effective for me (i dont really feel triceps working on chest or shoulder presses).
BTW the reverse grip press i was talking about is the one recommended by Dante. 3rd exercise in the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14QcYGsryN8.
I do think that my triceps have improved from heavy presses and extensions its just that i want them much bigger lol.
Thank you again
RE: Some questions - Scott Stevenson - 10-28-2016
(10-28-2016, 12:21 AM)ilyan93 Wrote: Hi Scott and thank you for the detailed response
I have been training for around 5 years. Im 22 years old, 6,2/188cm tall, weight is around 103kg/225lbs. Bf probably 15-18%.
At the moment doing a brosplit of Chest/delts, back, arms, legs and a light arm day. Im thinking of giving FT training a try, so i ask all these questions to make sure i dont fuck up your program lol.
No worries.
I think you stand a greater chance of "fucking it up" by modifying it before giving it a shot as I've set up (but see below).
Quote:Some lifts:
Low incline smith press 140kgx8, Inc BB 130kgx3, CGBP 140x6, RDL 180kgx10, BB rows 180kgx8, Smith front squats 150kgx5, Smith overhead press 120kgx6, DB curls 32kgx10, DB laterals 32kgx10 (on the inclines, cgbp and ohp i dont touch the chest nor lockout)
Impressive lateral strength! Go figure that those work well for you...
Quote:Goal is to get leaner and stronger while mantaining muscle right now. Im not a powerlifter or anything its just that these lifts that i have listed work well for the muscles im training and i dont have many good plate loaded machines for legs (no hack squat or even a 45 degree leg press). I will still try to find some decent lifts for the rotation.
Yeah, that can be a problem no matter what gym you train at.
Quote:About the not training delts thing: i have done a lot of heavy shoulder presses, its just that i fell i get better results from heavy laterals while for triceps i feel that presses are effective for me (i dont really feel triceps working on chest or shoulder presses).
I think you wrote this backwards, in that you meant to say that you don't feel chest on chest presses and delts on OH presses?...
You might like this exercise for triceps: https://www.instagram.com/p/BI3YCQWhIgT/?taken-by=fortitude_training
BTW the reverse grip press i was talking about is the one recommended by Dante. 3rd exercise in the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14QcYGsryN8.
I do think that my triceps have improved from heavy presses and extensions its just that i want them much bigger lol.[/quote]
I'd be interested to see you physique.
Here' the thing...
I dont' suspect your'e going to bring up weak / non-resopndinve muscle group while your main focus is dropping body fat. You'll need to have all your ducks in a row (including a caloric excess) to get that done, esp, if 5 yr. of training (if really focused) has not.
-S
RE: Some questions - ilyan93 - 10-29-2016
(10-28-2016, 07:57 AM)Scott Stevenson Wrote: No worries.
I think you stand a greater chance of "fucking it up" by modifying it before giving it a shot as I've set up (but see below).
Impressive lateral strength! Go figure that those work well for you...
Yeah, that can be a problem no matter what gym you train at.
I think you wrote this backwards, in that you meant to say that you don't feel chest on chest presses and delts on OH presses?...
You might like this exercise for triceps: https://www.instagram.com/p/BI3YCQWhIgT/?taken-by=fortitude_training
BTW the reverse grip press i was talking about is the one recommended by Dante. 3rd exercise in the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14QcYGsryN8.
I do think that my triceps have improved from heavy presses and extensions its just that i want them much bigger lol.
Quote:I'd be interested to see you physique.
Here' the thing...
I dont' suspect your'e going to bring up weak / non-resopndinve muscle group while your main focus is dropping body fat. You'll need to have all your ducks in a row (including a caloric excess) to get that done, esp, if 5 yr. of training (if really focused) has not.
-S
I attached some pictures. Still have a long way to go.
I meant that i feel very little triceps on chest and OH presses and thats why i felt i needed the triceps press. That exercise you listed would be used only for tricep MR and pump right?
What do you think about this template?
A1
Inc smith press
Smith btn press
Lat pd wide
BB row
A2
Smith front squat
Sommersault squats
RDL
Adduction machine
B1
Dips
DB laterals
Neutral pullups
Smith row
B2
Bb front squat
Leg ext (although i max the machine maybe lunges or bulgarian split squats?)
Lying ham curls
Abduction machine
C1
Revese grip wide smith press (or maybe a narrow freeweight bench powerlifting style? Just read too many scary pec tear stories lol)
Smith high incline press
Neutral pulldowns
Rack pulls
C2
Leg press (pretty shitty one so maybe smith machine lunges?)
Sissy smith machine squat
DB leg curl
Glute machine
BTW i got one more question: for zig zags say on squats (tier I) if you are doing ramping sets you do one squat set, rest, one iso set, rest, another exercise iso set and then squat again? Or you do less warmup sets for isolation exercises from the zig zags? Can you for example warmup with squats, do the set to failure and then go to failure on the isos after resting?
Thank you
[attachment=1072]
[attachment=1073]
[attachment=1074]
[attachment=1075]
[attachment=1076]
RE: Some questions - Scott Stevenson - 10-30-2016
(10-29-2016, 09:02 AM)ilyan93 Wrote: I attached some pictures. Still have a long way to go.
I meant that i feel very little triceps on chest and OH presses and thats why i felt i needed the triceps press. That exercise you listed would be used only for tricep MR and pump right?
You're missing a lot of pieces here, my man. There is no loading set for triceps with FT. Whether you use that for MRs and/or pump sets would depend upon how you like the exercise.
Quote:What do you think about this template?
A1
Inc smith press
Smith btn press
Lat pd wide
BB row
A2
Smith front squat
Sommersault squats
RDL
Adduction machine
B1
Dips
DB laterals
Neutral pullups
Smith row
B2
Bb front squat
Leg ext (although i max the machine maybe lunges or bulgarian split squats?)
Lying ham curls
Abduction machine
C1
Revese grip wide smith press (or maybe a narrow freeweight bench powerlifting style? Just read too many scary pec tear stories lol)
Smith high incline press
Neutral pulldowns
Rack pulls
C2
Leg press (pretty shitty one so maybe smith machine lunges?)
Sissy smith machine squat
DB leg curl
Glute machine
The quoted above is pretty nondescript, as you've got no isolation exercises listed, and there's no delineation as far as what you'd do for increasing Tiers.
Also, only two rotations will stall you out quickly, as is addressed in the thread I linked early, so you know my thoughts not that. You didn't respond to this, I don't think.
Also, you've not responded to the notion that you need to be gaining overall (eating an excess) to bring up weak muscle groups.
So, in short, I think the quoted lay out above is quite ill-conceived.
Quote:BTW i got one more question: for zig zags say on squats (tier I) if you are doing ramping sets you do one squat set, rest, one iso set, rest, another exercise iso set and then squat again? Or you do less warmup sets for isolation exercises from the zig zags? Can you for example warmup with squats, do the set to failure and then go to failure on the isos after resting?
You warm-up in whatever way you need to warm-up. That is highly individual.
Thanks for posting the pics. If anything, I'd say your delts are actually underdeveloped, to be honest.
So, overall, my suggestion is going to be to use the program as I've outlined it and work within those confines for a few blasts. If you're doing your own program here, you'll miss out on the depth of knowledge that comes from the other members here who can help you navigate FT.
I'll be even more honest. I don't like to play the "old guy who's seen it all card" but I don't see the degree of development in your physique that warrants the program tweaks you're talking about doing, especially because you've not even done FT and don't seem to have a firm handle on how it's done. I think you're overthinking this a good bit when I'd say the main goal is just to get as large (and strong) as possible.
It comes down to consistent, brutally hard training and a diet that supports growth (especially if you want to bring up weak muscle groups.) You're searching for the holy grail of bringing up specific muscle groups while dieting off fat, which only come when the stimulus is novel: You are a newbie to training (or maybe coming off a long layoff) or you're using PED's in a significant amount (1st time or much higher dose than before).
-S
RE: Some questions - ilyan93 - 10-30-2016
Yeah i know that i need to eat a surplus to gain. What do you mean by 2 rotations? I listed 3 (A, B, C). Different exercises each week. The template i listed was for tier I basic, sorry for actually forgetting to mention that. The only thing i altered was putting upper load first thing in the week (in the book it says you can do that). Also i put back after delts and chedt wich in the book you mention can be done (i feel my pressing suffers with a tired back).
I think there was a missunderstanding, im willing to do your program as written, and wanted to start at tier 1. If i got it right for upper load its 1 set for chest 1 for delts and 2 for back right? And for lower load 1 set thigs 1 set quads 1 set hams and 1 set adductors? Thats what i wrote in the template. I didnt mention calves because i have and old ankle injury and training them heavy feels really bad.
I really appreciate your honesty. Are there any other weak points you see?
Btw sorry if my post wasnt 100% clear english isnt my first language.
Thank you
RE: Some questions - Scott Stevenson - 10-30-2016
(10-30-2016, 01:55 AM)ilyan93 Wrote: Yeah i know that i need to eat a surplus to gain.
My point is a bit more specific - your'e trying to bring up specific muscle groups, which means that those are likely even more stubborn and less likely to grow.
Quote: What do you mean by 2 rotations? I listed 3 (A, B, C). Different exercises each week. The template i listed was for tier I basic, sorry for actually forgetting to mention that.
My bad on the two rotations comment - I had to switch computers mid-replying. (I was cleaning up the quoting in your response, too while dealing with an injured dog who was trying to run around the house - thus the computer switch. Long story... LOL
Quote:The only thing i altered was putting upper load first thing in the week (in the book it says you can do that). Also i put back after delts and chedt wich in the book you mention can be done (i feel my pressing suffers with a tired back).
That's cool, but it threw me off - see below.
Quote:I think there was a missunderstanding, im willing to do your program as written, and wanted to start at tier 1. If i got it right for upper load its 1 set for chest 1 for delts and 2 for back right? And for lower load 1 set thigs 1 set quads 1 set hams and 1 set adductors? Thats what i wrote in the template. I didnt mention calves because i have and old ankle injury and training them heavy feels really bad.
That's all good, man - you called it a "Template" which it's really not, as all those loading exercises with change over time. The template would be the Overview sheets, where the type of exercise (not specific ones) are noted.
Here's, for example, more specifically, why my initial glance at at what you posted didn't come across as if you were doing FT. (You mention some of this now, of course, I recognize.)
Quote:A1
Inc smith press
Smith btn press
Lat pd wide
BB row
You've reverse the typical order, not mentioned this would be Tier I and that you'd be doing Pump sets, too. (Perhaps you would order those differently somehow, too?) I had to guess (but wasn't 100% sure) that these would be your version of Loading sets...
Other than this, the only thing left for me to look at is your exercise selection and that's up to you to determine. Loading sets are your go to exercises for gaining size - that's your call.
So, this is your "Template" that has simply an exercise listed for chest, shoulders, back width and back thickness. It's missing the other pieces of FT that you would do (Pump set) and the typical order of exercises (with no mention of this changing), so that this simply came across to me as something that you came up with. I honestly didn't even get the impression you were going to try to do FT here.
Quote:A2
Smith front squat
Sommersault squats
RDL
Adduction machine"
Here of course, you've got Day 1 and Day 2 switched in (which is OK, but you didn't mention it).
Here there IS possibly an issue with exercise selection (as with C2), in that you're going to have to commandeer a barbell (I guess - you didn't specify) to do your ham exercise, but this ham exercise isn't really an isolation exercise d/t the low back involvement. (Still not a terrible choice b/c you'll not hit low back to much on the smith front squat. A RDL on the SMITH machine might be more doable). With C2, you'd have to hold a leg press and a smith machine. Kind of a pain in the butt.
You don't list any calf exercise here (or elsewhere) and again, no mention of that you would actually be doing Pump sets.
So, again, my apologies, b/c with all of the above, and no specific question about what you're concerns are, nothing noting all the changes you feel like you need to make before even doing the program, I really didn't even recognize that you were doing FT.
My opinion is still still the same that you're greatly overanalyzing here, before doing the program. (I've seen this literally HUNDREDS of times over the years - it doesn't behoove good progress in my experience.) As far as losing pressing power after back work - as long as you're progression, this may be a moot point.
Quote:I really appreciate your honesty. Are there any other weak points you see?
Sure!
I'd need full body shots hitting "Relaxed" (¼ turn) shots or basic bodybuilding poses to really say much more.
Still, my opinion should be secondary to yours. If you want crazy huge arms that wouldn't be rewarded on a BB'in stage, that's OK by me.
Quote:Btw sorry if my post wasnt 100% clear english isnt my first language.
Thank you
You're welcome!
I didn't notice poor English at all - just a general lack of detail and specificity that put us on different pages. (Also, I dropped the ball on the rotations, too. My bad there.)
-S