FT Questions....

[Scott Stevenson]

Dr. Scott "The Game" is the shit! lol. I'm definitely ordering The Subtle Art of Not Giving A Fuck next as it reminds me of another favorite book of mine called "What Would Machiavelli Do - The Ends Justify the Meanness".

I may have to pick that book up.

Getting to my question: Can you please further clarify "zig-zagging"? Inferring from previous post's, I gather that it is not required but I want 100% understanding of this system. You state to interchange between compound and isolation exercises. Furthermore, you state that only the last set of a compound movement is to be taken to failure but isolation exercises can all be taken to failure. This coincides with a grouping of A, B and C exercises that are rotated by the week? From what I understand, I personally do not like this approach as it seems arbitrary. In the D.C. method these exercises would only be cycled if one couldn't beat the log book by one rep or five pounds. That holds more intent and structure to me pragmatically. Would you agree or am I misunderstanding the text you put out?

What is arbitrary about it (other than perhaps that each individual picks the exercises to be used)?...

Have you read the full section in the book on Loading sets (~p.88), including the zig-zagging examples?...

Maybe you are referring to when to when one would drop a given exercise or a particular rotation d/t lack of progression?...

In closing, I like the idea of performing this system with straight sets and no "supersetting or zigzagging". I propose creating an exercise pool for the load days but only rotating them if I cannot beat the log book by 1 rep or 5 pounds. The exercise pool for the muscle round days or pump sets can remain arbitrary. Does this completely unravel the physiology of the FT system you put forth and is there a scientific method for why I should/should not do this that was built into the system I am completely missing?
Thank you for your time Doc!

-Alejandro

I try to, whenever possible, "seek first to understand and then to criticize" or in your case propose an alternative.

So you're saying you'd do the same exercise (not rotate among and A, B and C exercise or A, B and C grouping of exercises), until one stalls and can't progress. (BTW, the exercises for Pump sets and MR's are not at all arbitrary.)

So, if I follow you (I'm not sure *I* understand here), you're proposing a week by week progression that could look like this (say for thighs):

Week 1: Squats x (# sets depending on volume tier?... with perhaps a different rest interval?)
Week 2: Squats as above
Week 3: Squats as above
Week 4: Squats (fail to progress by 1 reps or 5lb on any of the sets?... What if one set progresses and another does not?...)
Week 5: Change to Leg Press as above
Week 6: Leg Press as above
Etc. until there is a failure to progress on Leg press (cruising at some point along the way, of course, too.)

Or

As above, but using only compound exercise and a A, B, C rotation (Squats, Leg Press, HS Squat machine) such as with DC:

Week 1: Squats
Week 2: L. Press
Week 3: HS Squat machine
Week 4: Squats
Etc?...

Just want to see what you are proposing as well as what you find to be arbitrary in FT.

As far as the "science" of zig-zagging isolation sets, I think i touch on some of these in the book (and certainly here on the board), we have:

• You can vary order of exercises (Variety / Variation is a Principle of Training)
• You can pre-fatigue with isolation exercises to target lagging muscle groups and change the relative stress incurred during the compound muscle groups.
• Esp. for legs and even back (exercises chosen accordingly), the isolation exercises prevent from from "gassing out" on the compound movements.
• Using 2 or three movements (compound plus isolations) adds variety to training in general (variety of training) vs. Compound movements alone
• Isolation movements are less taxing to the CNS (and indirectly ANS, endocrine and immune systems) and thus allow you to train with more volume (shift relative load to the Sk. muscle vs. other organ systems) and take advantage of dose response of volume vs.muscle growth.
• One can vary the order of exercises when Zig-zagging upon reaching a plateau in gains and still hold on to (keep in the rotation) exercises that work very well for a person. This is helpful, too, when training with limited training option (i.e., there are really only 3 good compound exercises for a given muscle group).

BTW, it's really only the compound exercises that I suggest folks focus on (esp. for legs) when assessing when to progress is stalling and it's time to drop an exercise rotation or change exercise order. This is also because sometimes "shit happens" and one can't get on to an isolation exercise machine when zig zagging and has to improvise on that particular day. (The priority is on holding down the compound exercise machine / rack / bench. I address ways to avoid this a few times here on the board, like how one could couple rack deads with rack chins, smith squats with smith sissy hack squats and DB ham curls, etc.)

-S

[Arnoldgenes]

What is arbitrary about it (other than perhaps that each individual picks the exercises to be used)?...

Yes sir, that is what I was referring to along with the fact that the isolation exercises aren't used as a barometer to cycle exercises due to their lack of progress such as the compounds would be.

Have you read the full section in the book on Loading sets (~p.88), including the zig-zagging examples?...

Yes sir, I read it over and over which is what led me to post and further clarify my understanding. I took notes and even found two minor typo's in your definition of "Zig-Zagging" on particularly pg88 which I was trying to find a way to bring to your attention so this is ironic. They are bolded here in parenthesis:
(pg88 States - Exercise Selection (ZIG-ZAGGING): Use Primary Compound Free weight exercises (Barbells, dumbbells and plate-loaded machines) or your specifc preferences for you “go to” mass building)

Maybe you are referring to when to when one would drop a given exercise or a particular rotation d/t lack of progression?...

Yes sir, this is exactly what I am referring to.

I try to, whenever possible, "seek first to understand and then to criticize" or in your case propose an alternative.

So you're saying you'd do the same exercise (not rotate among and A, B and C exercise or A, B and C grouping of exercises), until one stalls and can't progress. (BTW, the exercises for Pump sets and MR's are not at all arbitrary.)

So, if I follow you (I'm not sure *I* understand here), you're proposing a week by week progression that could look like this (say for thighs):

Week 1: Squats x (# sets depending on volume tier?... with perhaps a different rest interval?)
Week 2: Squats as above
Week 3: Squats as above
Week 4: Squats (fail to progress by 1 reps or 5lb on any of the sets?... What if one set progresses and another does not?...)
Week 5: Change to Leg Press as above
Week 6: Leg Press as above
Etc. until there is a failure to progress on Leg press (cruising at some point along the way, of course, too.)

Or

As above, but using only compound exercise and a A, B, C rotation (Squats, Leg Press, HS Squat machine) such as with DC:

Week 1: Squats
Week 2: L. Press
Week 3: HS Squat machine
Week 4: Squats
Etc?...

Just want to see what you are proposing as well as what you find to be arbitrary in FT.

Yes sir, exactly the first example you wrote out.
Week 1: Squats x (# sets depending on volume tier?... with perhaps a different rest interval?) yes sir, based on vol tier and 2min rest
Week 2: Squats as above
Week 3: Squats as above
Week 4: Squats (fail to progress by 1 reps or 5lb on any of the sets?... What if one set progresses and another does not?...)If one fails you lose it to the rotation
Week 5: Change to Leg Press as above
Week 6: Leg Press as above
Etc. until there is a failure to progress on Leg press (cruising at some point along the way, of course, too.)yes sir, the same outlines for cruise apply

As far as the "science" of zig-zagging isolation sets, I think i touch on some of these in the book (and certainly here on the board), we have:

• You can vary order of exercises (Variety / Variation is a Principle of Training)
• You can pre-fatigue with isolation exercises to target lagging muscle groups and change the relative stress incurred during the compound muscle groups.
• Esp. for legs and even back (exercises chosen accordingly), the isolation exercises prevent from from "gassing out" on the compound movements.
• Using 2 or three movements (compound plus isolations) adds variety to training in general (variety of training) vs. Compound movements alone
• Isolation movements are less taxing to the CNS (and indirectly ANS, endocrine and immune systems) and thus allow you to train with more volume (shift relative load to the Sk. muscle vs. other organ systems) and take advantage of dose response of volume vs.muscle growth.
• One can vary the order of exercises when Zig-zagging upon reaching a plateau in gains and still hold on to (keep in the rotation) exercises that work very well for a person. This is helpful, too, when training with limited training option (i.e., there are really only 3 good compound exercises for a given muscle group).

BTW, it's really only the compound exercises that I suggest folks focus on (esp. for legs) when assessing when to progress is stalling and it's time to drop an exercise rotation or change exercise order. This is also because sometimes "shit happens" and one can't get on to an isolation exercise machine when zig zagging and has to improvise on that particular day. (The priority is on holding down the compound exercise machine / rack / bench. I address ways to avoid this a few times here on the board, like how one could couple rack deads with rack chins, smith squats with smith sissy hack squats and DB ham curls, etc.)

-S

Thank you for this in depth clarification. I guess I didn't understand the place of isolation super-setting with compounds on the "load" days. I see what you're aiming to achieve with this method now due to this clarification. Pg 94 actually shows me exactly what I was confused about with the tier 3 example. I will try it this way, I started with straight sets and compounds only.

[Scott Stevenson]

Yes sir, that is what I was referring to along with the fact that the isolation exercises aren't used as a barometer to cycle exercises due to their lack of progress such as the compounds would be.

Well, the fact that the loading set exercises are chosen based on a person's personal history in finding the best exercises suited for heavy training (and making progress from a body building perspective) is the best way of choosing them that I can think of.

Is there a better practical way to find the best mass gaining exercises other than by one's experience (and experimenting to find new and better ones)?

Or perhaps something in you just is unsettled by the subjective nature of this decision making process, logical or not?

-----

You can use the isolation exercises to gauge progression. No rule against that. If they are going up by leaps and bounds and your compounds are holding as far as reps with the same load, then that's progression. Typically everything will go up (or NOT) in unison, on the average, over the course of weeks / months

Yes sir, I read it over and over which is what led me to post and further clarify my understanding. I took notes and even found two minor typo's in your definition of "Zig-Zagging" on particularly pg88 which I was trying to find a way to bring to your attention so this is ironic. They are bolded here in parenthesis:
(pg88 States - Exercise Selection (ZIG-ZAGGING): Use Primary Compound Free weight exercises (Barbells, dumbbells and plate-loaded machines) or your specifc preferences for you “go to” mass building)

There are dozens and dozens of other typos throughout the book.

Thanks for the insight, and yes, the irony is thick!

Yes sir, exactly the first example you wrote out.
Week 1: Squats x (# sets depending on volume tier?... with perhaps a different rest interval?) yes sir, based on vol tier and 2min rest
Week 2: Squats as above
Week 3: Squats as above
Week 4: Squats (fail to progress by 1 reps or 5lb on any of the sets?... What if one set progresses and another does not?...)If one fails you lose it to the rotation
Week 5: Change to Leg Press as above
Week 6: Leg Press as above
Etc. until there is a failure to progress on Leg press (cruising at some point along the way, of course, too.)yes sir, the same outlines for cruise apply

You're welcome to do it this way if you like, but you'd be missing out on the things that I mention in my previous post.

If you use that strict criterion for progression, without any leeway for circumstances, you'll drop exercises more regularly. How much, I can't say, but this will possibly preclude you from grinding away with some of your best exercises. It's not uncommon for a very large percentage of your weekly performances on loading sets to only show progress on one or two, but not all of the sets. It's also not uncommon for many that "shit happens" and something gets in the way of recovery (poor sleep, travel, etc.) and you make progress or are lucky to just equal the previous numbers, when it's obvious that the reason for this is acute and won't be a problem after a good night's sleep, etc. Jumping ship on those exercises b/c you didn't progress on each and every one of them isn't a good idea, IMO. (Heck, even with DC training, you'd allow an "off week" if performance was not an improvement and didn't take a huge nose dive...)

The guys who make really good progress are the ones who GRIND out the reps week by week, micro loading as need be and holding on to exercises as much as possible. This is when the performance is more related to muscle mass gain, rather than changing exercises and the re-gaining familiarity, which can play a role even in people who have been training for decades.

Thank you for this in depth clarification. I guess I didn't understand the place of isolation super-setting with compounds on the "load" days. I see what you're aiming to achieve with this method now due to this clarification. Pg 94 actually shows me exactly what I was confused about with the tier 3 example. I will try it this way, I started with straight sets and compounds only.

No problemo! I'm sure you're not the only one to have wondered about this, so it was nice to have a new question asked.

-S

[nordan]

The guys who make really good progress are the ones who GRIND out the reps week by week, micro loading as need be and holding on to exercises as much as possible. This is when the performance is more related to muscle mass gain, rather than changing exercises and the re-gaining familiarity, which can play a role even in people who have been training for decades.

-S

I can definitely vouch for this! I used to be the guy who switched exercises every blast.. dont get me wrong I still made progress however since adopting this approach of grinding away exercises until you cant grind no more has reaped the biggest changes to my physique. I've kept most things in for 3 blasts straight now and still making minor progressions whether it be an addition of a micro plate or a rep. I do however believe that the progress regarding the increments of which the weight has been added has slowed down a touch however that is inevitable. Also switching my ISO exercises to precede my compound has added some serious growth.

[Scott Stevenson]

I can definitely vouch for this! I used to be the guy who switched exercises every blast.. dont get me wrong I still made progress however since adopting this approach of grinding away exercises until you cant grind no more has reaped the biggest changes to my physique. I've kept most things in for 3 blasts straight now and still making minor progressions whether it be an addition of a micro plate or a rep. I do however believe that the progress regarding the increments of which the weight has been added has slowed down a touch however that is inevitable. Also switching my ISO exercises to precede my compound has added some serious growth.

Thanks for this input!!!

I hope Arnoldgenes sees your post, especially this last (bolded) sentence...

-S

[nordan]

Thanks for this input!!!

I hope Arnoldgenes sees your post, especially this last (bolded) sentence...

-S

No worries Scott, just trying to help out a little as you do so much for this community and give some real in depth answers to peoples questions.
However I feel some people disregard those, as your thoughts and suggestions/solutions may not be in line with there current thought process nor be what they want to here.

Anyways, could you touch up on my response regarding timing of off plan meals when you get a second? Heres a link for ease.

Integrative Bodybuilding

Thanks

[nordan]

Scott..

a question about arms...

I find that when I get to the end of my workout when its time to train arms that I don't have the energy / desire to train them properly.. not properly.. lets re-word that, efficiently is probably a better term to use. Its like I don't have the oomph to smash it as much as say at the beginning of the workout.. which is inevitable considering workouts last 2 hours in my case.

I understand that they are last in the split or placed at the end so that they don't take away any loading from any back/chest movements due to fatigue in the biceps / triceps, however... do you think that the volume at which these are prescribed (1 set) would really effect the proceeding muscle groups such as back and chest / shoulders?

I am thinking this next blast to start my split with arms so that I can put in the same effort in as I do any starting muscle group and literally hammer them, that way I get the most out of training them as I feel like I am neglecting them a little or I rush them because I want to get out of the gym and re-fuel or.. just simply get out the gym
I used to follow a JP split where he had me doing Biceps before Legs and the rationale behind that was that after an absolutely intense balls to the wall leg session, the last thing you want to do is start smashing arms.. that's if you had the energy to do so and I totally get that.

What are your thoughts? Do you think it is worth trying ?

[Scott Stevenson]

No worries Scott, just trying to help out a little as you do so much for this community and give some real in depth answers to peoples questions.
However I feel some people disregard those, as your thoughts and suggestions/solutions may not be in line with there current thought process nor be what they want to here.

Anyways, could you touch up on my response regarding timing of off plan meals when you get a second? Heres a link for ease.

Integrative Bodybuilding

Thanks

Done.

Scott..

a question about arms...

I find that when I get to the end of my workout when its time to train arms that I don't have the energy / desire to train them properly.. not properly.. lets re-word that, efficiently is probably a better term to use. Its like I don't have the oomph to smash it as much as say at the beginning of the workout.. which is inevitable considering workouts last 2 hours in my case.

I understand that they are last in the split or placed at the end so that they don't take away any loading from any back/chest movements due to fatigue in the biceps / triceps, however... do you think that the volume at which these are prescribed (1 set) would really effect the proceeding muscle groups such as back and chest / shoulders?

I am thinking this next blast to start my split with arms so that I can put in the same effort in as I do any starting muscle group and literally hammer them, that way I get the most out of training them as I feel like I am neglecting them a little or I rush them because I want to get out of the gym and re-fuel or.. just simply get out the gym
I used to follow a JP split where he had me doing Biceps before Legs and the rationale behind that was that after an absolutely intense balls to the wall leg session, the last thing you want to do is start smashing arms.. that's if you had the energy to do so and I totally get that.

What are your thoughts? Do you think it is worth trying ?

Sure, you can put arms before legs (or earlier in the workout).

Before JP, that was Dante's strategy of DC training and its a sound one for the reason you not above. (This was a question about DC training that i've heard / seen dozens upon dozens of times. )

-S

[Dx2]

Hi

i have a question about working arround an injury.

I have medial epycondilitis for over 2months right elbow , i have worked arround the injury. cruising, pomp sets , using different grips ,using strong grip wrist wraps etc... . i have the most pain while doing curls (ez bar, db's ,cable,bands) everything for biceps seems to agrevate my elbow. just opening a door causes pain
Docters advise is cortisone injections what i want to avoid! other option is PRP but too expensive for me

Would it be a good idea to start doing kaatsu training for biceps . the voodoo floss stretches that i do seems to help a bit.
Kaatsu not only for hypertrophy but for recovery means .

bloodworks ,blood pressure is good, no supersupps .

[Scott Stevenson]

Hi

i have a question about working arround an injury.

I have medial epycondilitis for over 2months right elbow , i have worked arround the injury. cruising, pomp sets , using different grips ,using strong grip wrist wraps etc... . i have the most pain while doing curls (ez bar, db's ,cable,bands) everything for biceps seems to agrevate my elbow. just opening a door causes pain
Docters advise is cortisone injections what i want to avoid! other option is PRP but too expensive for me

Would it be a good idea to start doing kaatsu training for biceps . the voodoo floss stretches that i do seems to help a bit.
Kaatsu not only for hypertrophy but for recovery means .

bloodworks ,blood pressure is good, no supersupps .

Here's my standard approach to these sorts of things. This is not a prescription for you, but just thoughts that I consider when Golfer's elbow is the issue.

Stop doing anything that aggravates it - I can't tell if what you've done has entirely worked around it (meaning no pain whatsoever doing those things) or if you've just managed to find a way to make the training tolerable.

Figure out why you have this and remedy that, too, as much as possible. Is this from some repetitive action at work or something of the like?...

I'd go see an ART (typically a chiropractor or LMT) or a Tui Na (acupuncturist, most likely) or perhaps a medical massage (LMT) practitioner who can work on this. That person may likely prescribe some kind of wrist / finger flexor stretch.

IMO, in treating folks with this (with acupuncture and Tui Na) as well as myself numerous times, that cortisone or PRP is like using a hand grenade to take out a gnat... Way overkill.

One of those practitioners might also prescribe a topical anti-inflammatory like my favorite Kwan Loong Oil. I talk about how one could use that here:

https://www.elitefts.com/education/train...n-warrior/

BCM-95 curcumin (taken on an empty stomach at 400mg) can have systemic anti-inflammatory properties that translates into reduced aches n' pains for many folks.

-S