Isokinetics, Excentrics and Hypertrophy

[Stefan]

Hi,

dont know if this is the right forum, saw Scott Stevenson on the revive stronger podcast talked about that topic, so i hope to find here some Insight/Experience about Isometrics und Excentrics, because there are nearly no Information from Bodybuilders on this.

Trained the last 6 month on machines which can instantly adjust the resistance on every point of the movement. This offers several Resistance-Profiles, the most two interesting for me are the overloaded-Excentric-mode and the isometric-mode.
The used machines have good movement-paths, at least for my mechanics, except that the lower body machines are a bit short on rom:
latpulldown, row, bench-press, front-press, dip, curl, legcurl, legextensions, legpress, goodmornings/hyperextensions

Findings

Overloaded-Excentrics:
mostly i overloaded about 50% (f.e. latpulldown: concentric 100kg, excentric 150kg), fast concentric, controlled excentric, about 10-12Reps in the first set (about 1rep to Failure)
- the feeling/muscle-feeling in this setting is unreal, better than in isometrics
- the combination on fast concentric and very heavy excentric is much fun, gives the set a special dynamic, you feel STRONG
- the cardio-system is hit hard (in comparison to a normal or isometric set of the same type)
- normal Lifting "feels" improved, is this a motor-control thing?
- recovery from this training takes not so long as i thought(based on overloaded-excentrics-experience on the pull-up and Dip)

Isometrics:
the machine has fixed speed and adjusts the resistance as you push harder up to your max-force. In practise you get a highly adaptive slow-moving set.
Setup 1: You push every moment at max-force and after about 5-8 Reps (depending on movement) you have such low force that it doesent feel productive any more
Setup 2: You set a limit for the resistance and can do longer sets, experimented up to 20 reps, this setup is a very productive Pump-Work
- the Setup 1 completely drains you of any force-production, its crazy
- this synergizes well with long rests or training multiple movements in a circle, cause there are no "junk"-reps and you can use one or two reps in the beginning of each set to groove in
- its very draining in Training, but i recover very fast from the isometrics to the next training

Hypertrophy?
There is nearly no doms after isometrics and much fewer after excentric-overloaded than i thought. It might be a factor that there no variation on the machines, but with "normal"training i can infuse doms every week with same exersises for a  long time if i do them right. I have tested and isolated compenents of movements to test which part is most important for doms, and its not the excentric itself, key for me here is the part around the stretched position of an exersise, especially the first centimeters of acceleration out of the stretched position with heavy weight. I wonder if the momentum of a real-weight is key here, because these machines dont have this.

So the next Question is, is the tuned down doms and the missing momentum-impact around the stretched position a good or bad thing?
I dont think you need doms for a productive workout (check two of  the three boxes : 1. Pump/feeling, 2. signifcant reduced strength after workout, 3. doms), but after 20years training i relate: workouts that felt very productive produce mostly doms, phases that got me forward werent without doms.

The thing that makes me really wondering: i made big progress in overloaded excentrics and isometrics, but the transfer to normal lifting is conflicting.

Perhaps there is a phasic approach, f.e. every 7-14 days do a classic doms intense workout and after healing for a few days do high frequency with theses machines?


Have a nice day
Stefan

[Scott Stevenson]

Hi,

dont know if this is the right forum, saw Scott Stevenson on the revive stronger podcast talked about that topic, so i hope to find here some Insight/Experience about Isometrics und Excentrics, because there are nearly no Information from Bodybuilders on this.

Trained the last 6 month on machines which can instantly adjust the resistance on every point of the movement. This offers several Resistance-Profiles, the most two interesting for me are the overloaded-Excentric-mode and the isometric-mode.
The used machines have good movement-paths, at least for my mechanics, except that the lower body machines are a bit short on rom:
latpulldown, row, bench-press, front-press, dip, curl, legcurl, legextensions, legpress, goodmornings/hyperextensions

Findings

Overloaded-Excentrics:
mostly i overloaded about 50% (f.e. latpulldown: concentric 100kg, excentric 150kg), fast concentric, controlled excentric, about 10-12Reps in the first set (about 1rep to Failure)
- the feeling/muscle-feeling in this setting is unreal, better than in isometrics
- the combination on fast concentric and very heavy excentric is much fun, gives the set a special dynamic, you feel STRONG
- the cardio-system is hit hard (in comparison to a normal or isometric set of the same type)
- normal Lifting "feels" improved, is this a motor-control thing?
- recovery from this training takes not so long as i thought(based on overloaded-excentrics-experience on the pull-up and Dip)

Isometrics:
the machine has fixed speed and adjusts the resistance as you push harder up to your max-force. In practise you get a highly adaptive slow-moving set.
Setup 1: You push every moment at max-force and after about 5-8 Reps (depending on movement) you have such low force that it doesent feel productive any more
Setup 2: You set a limit for the resistance and can do longer sets, experimented up to 20 reps, this setup is a very productive Pump-Work
- the Setup 1 completely drains you of any force-production, its crazy
- this synergizes well with long rests or training multiple movements in a circle, cause there are no "junk"-reps and you can use one or two reps in the beginning of each set to groove in
- its very draining in Training, but i recover very fast from the isometrics to the next training

Hypertrophy?
There is nearly no doms after isometrics and much fewer after excentric-overloaded than i thought. It might be a factor that there no variation on the machines, but with "normal"training i can infuse doms every week with same exersises for a  long time if i do them right. I have tested and isolated compenents of movements to test which part is most important for doms, and its not the excentric itself, key for me here is the part around the stretched position of an exersise, especially the first centimeters of acceleration out of the stretched position with heavy weight. I wonder if the momentum of a real-weight is key here, because these machines dont have this.

So the next Question is, is the tuned down doms and the missing momentum-impact around the stretched position a good or bad thing?
I dont think you need doms for a productive workout (check two of  the three boxes : 1. Pump/feeling, 2. signifcant reduced strength after workout, 3. doms), but after 20years training i relate: workouts that felt very productive produce mostly doms, phases that got me forward werent without doms.

The thing that makes me really wondering: i made big progress in overloaded excentrics and isometrics, but the transfer to normal lifting is conflicting.

Perhaps there is a phasic approach, f.e. every 7-14 days do a classic doms intense workout and after healing for a few days do high frequency with theses machines?


Have a nice day
Stefan

Hey Stefan!

Thanks for posting this.

Could you tell us what machine you have actually been using?  (Don't worry - I won't accuse you of advertising.)

Also, what has your training split looked like when training with and without this machine?...  What kind of progress did you make in terms of strength, body comp, etc?

Lastly, I'm sure quite exactly what you'd like me or the members here to respond to. You said a LOT of course, but what are your specific questions?... 

-Scott

[Stefan]

Hey Scott,

- i come from a high frequency training background, my first structered program was HST, HST912. Over the years i experimentad a lot and always came back to my 2-3/week frequency.
- the machines are from Egym (Germany)
- in the first 3 months of using them i trained mostly 3times a week FullBody (long sessions) mostly Egym and cycled between excentric overloaded and isometric. it is hard to tell how much output i gained here, because the first weeks i grooved into the new machines, but for 2 months i could add weight every week! didnt experienced that in years with lifts like latpulldown or benchpress.
- then i integrated standard lifting back: i tried to use machines/setups which where as close to the Egym-machines as possible. I planned 3 workouts to get back into about 10RM reprange, and it took me a long time because of soreness. The shocking thing that i couldnt transfer the gains to this normal lifting, especially around the stretched Position and the joints i felt week.
- after unterstanding what is the main difference between normal lifting und egym i went into testing mode: all combinations around concentric/excentric/stretched position. This took a long time cause i wanted to flatten the repeated bout effect for good results. All this last months i kept on the isokinetic training, because it has litlle interference due to little muscle damage. The last weeks i tried to replicate the adaptive character of the isokinetics on normal-machines, where i can start very heavy (3-5RM) and change weight fast so i can get out 8-10reps (ok, other topic)

Where i need help is this:
In that gym mostly old people, some athletes on rehab and people which are short on time are training on Egym. There is no advanced and ambitious lifter who trains that way. Its the same on the Internet, i could only find people who testet isokinetic machines, but people who trained on them for hypertrophy over a long time? If understood the trainers correctly, the Egym-Company itself say they see the best results are on the isokinetic mode, which i can buy from an effetive-Reps-Model, but there is something missing.
There is so much to test/discuss what are the up and downsides (not only hypertrophy, f.e. joints and tendons as well), how to integrate that, is it worth?
I am looking for experience and theoretical knowledge.

Stefan

[Scott Stevenson]

Hey Scott,

- i come from a high frequency training background, my first structered program was HST, HST912. Over the years i experimentad a lot and always came back to my 2-3/week frequency.
- the machines are from Egym (Germany)
- in the first 3 months of using them i trained mostly 3times a week FullBody (long sessions) mostly Egym and cycled between excentric overloaded and isometric. it is hard to tell how much output i gained here, because the first weeks i grooved into the new machines, but for 2 months i could add weight every week! didnt experienced that in years with lifts like latpulldown or benchpress.
- then i integrated standard lifting back: i tried to use machines/setups which where as close to the Egym-machines as possible. I planned 3 workouts to get back into about 10RM reprange, and it took me a long time because of soreness. The shocking thing that i couldnt transfer the gains to this normal lifting, especially around the stretched Position and the joints i felt week.
- after unterstanding what is the main difference between normal lifting und egym i went into testing mode: all combinations around concentric/excentric/stretched position. This took a long time cause i wanted to flatten the repeated bout effect for good results. All this last months i kept on the isokinetic training, because it has litlle interference due to little muscle damage. The last weeks i tried to replicate the adaptive character of the isokinetics on normal-machines, where i can start very heavy (3-5RM) and change weight fast so i can get out 8-10reps (ok, other topic)

Where i need help is this:
In that gym mostly old people, some athletes on rehab and people which are short on time are training on Egym. There is no advanced and ambitious lifter who trains that way. Its the same on the Internet, i could only find people who testet isokinetic machines, but people who trained on them for hypertrophy over a long time? If understood the trainers correctly, the Egym-Company itself say they see the best results are on the isokinetic mode, which i can buy from an effetive-Reps-Model, but there is something missing.
There is so much to test/discuss what are the up and downsides (not only hypertrophy, f.e. joints and tendons as well), how to integrate that, is it worth?
I am looking for experience and theoretical knowledge.

Stefan

OK, so I presume your goal is hypertrophy?   

Where you eating enough to make gains?...

If you were progressing with the Egym, why did you decide to go back to normal lifting?.. 

Is there someplace where the Egym folks state that the isokinetic modes gives best 'results" and what doest that mean?   Where are the data?  (Strength, hypertrophy?)

A standard (PT / research grade) isokinetic machine truly control angular velocity and can force an eccentric (at a given speed) that allows of maximal voluntary effort. How does work on those machines?...

-S

[Stefan]

OK, so I presume your goal is hypertrophy?   

Where you eating enough to make gains?...

Yes, Yes and i dit make Gains.

If you were progressing with the Egym, why did you decide to go back to normal lifting?.. 

The Gym is far away, its not sustainable to go there 3times a week, even two times a week is hard. I would loved to test to train Isokinetic every day (low warm up work, low damage).

Is there someplace where the Egym folks state that the isokinetic modes gives best 'results" and what doest that mean?   Where are the data?  (Strength, hypertrophy?)

No. If i remember they said it to the Gym-Trainers in a teaching, the general advise it to periodize the trainings-modi.  The machines are also a computer, they track everything you do. So they see worldwide from every user what Progress is made.

A standard (PT / research grade) isokinetic machine truly control angular velocity and can force an eccentric (at a given speed) that allows of maximal voluntary effort. How does work on those machines?...

Excactly they work this way, on isokinetic the velocity is controlled and the machine adjusts the resistance how hard you press up to your maximum force. So you have to really be careful in the stretched position, when your normal style of lifting is to decelerate here, the machine will pull/push harder without limit to keep up the velocity.

[Scott Stevenson]

Yes, Yes and i dit make Gains.



The Gym is far away, its not sustainable to go there 3times a week, even two times a week is hard. I would loved to test to train Isokinetic every day (low warm up work, low damage).

No. If i remember they said it to the Gym-Trainers in a teaching, the general advise it to periodize the trainings-modi.  The machines are also a computer, they track everything you do. So they see worldwide from every user what Progress is made.


Excactly they work this way, on isokinetic the velocity is controlled and the machine adjusts the resistance how hard you press up to your maximum force. So you have to really be careful in the stretched position, when your normal style of lifting is to decelerate here, the machine will pull/push harder without limit to keep up the velocity.

Roger the above.  

I did read in your first post that you were setting a specific LOAD during the concentric and eccentric, which is different than a true isokinetic, where the load is not determined at all, only the speed, and a person could put forth maximal or minimal effort and the velocity will be the same.  

Traditional isokinetic CAN be better for hypertrophy b/c you can, as you note, have all reps be "effective" in that there can be maximal effort throughout the set. 

So, I'm still trying to nail down your question(s), but I think you're wanting to know how to periodize the E-gym with normal training in some way?   

If that's your question, I would simply consider the E-gym training as a set type, much like I do in Fortitude Training with loading sets, MR's and pump sets, and rotate through in some fashion based on how often you can get over to that gym and the other particulars of your situation (and likely prioritize those workouts, both before and after, in terms of recovery days/ time, as those will be more taxing and where you want to be sure to progress, if I'm following what you've told me correctly).

-Scott

[Stefan]

I did read in your first post that you were setting a specific LOAD during the concentric and eccentric, which is different than a true isokinetic, where the load is not determined at all

that was in the excentric-overloaded mode, where you can set a concentric and excentric resistance.

There are 5 modes:

- normal

- normal-adaptive (a contious adaptive set)

- excentric-overloaded

- isokinetic

- explosive



i trained only excentric-overloaded and isokinetic because of real heavy excentric in both settings

Traditional isokinetic CAN be better for hypertrophy b/c you can, as you note, have all reps be "effective" in that there can be maximal effort throughout the set. 

In theory, the isokinetic has so many good things for hypertrophy, but this lagging deceleration and acceleration of a moving mass with inertia in the stretched position seems huge.

When i went from normal lifting to the heavy isokinetics/excentric-overloaded it felt so easy, no doms, tendons and joins felt great. Going back, from all out forces and absurd heavy excentrics on Egym to normal lifting: incredible doms. what?

So for me there is no isokinetic-only way, only a way of integrating that like this:

If that's your question, I would simply consider the E-gym training as a set type, much like I do in Fortitude Training with loading sets, MR's and pump sets

but I think you're wanting to know how to periodize the E-gym with normal training in some way?

Are there ambitious Lifters who have done that over months and years? Are there any positive long term results in doing this? The studys about isokinetics are not helping at all. That isokinetics results in strength adaptation yes, but are they worth the opportunity costs? (you could be lifting "normal" instead)



Anyway, thank you very much for your time =)

And thank you for Fortitude Training, read and trained in 2021, in the end it helped me to reduce weekly volume, thats a big thing.

[Scott Stevenson]

that was in the excentric-overloaded mode, where you can set a concentric and excentric resistance.

There are 5 modes:

- normal

- normal-adaptive (a contious adaptive set)

- excentric-overloaded

- isokinetic

- explosive

Those are very cool machines!!!

i trained only excentric-overloaded and isokinetic because of real heavy excentric in both settings

OK, but below you also say: " Egym and cycled between excentric overloaded and isometric."  (See also your first post.)

In theory, the isokinetic has so many good things for hypertrophy, but this lagging deceleration and acceleration of a moving mass with inertia in the stretched position seems huge.

Please clarify if you would.  Do you mean here that in terms of DOMS, having to control the transition from eccentric to concentric is what you think is causing DOMS, mostly, during the regular training?...


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When i went from normal lifting to the heavy isokinetics/excentric-overloaded it felt so easy, no doms, tendons and joins felt great. Going back, from all out forces and absurd heavy excentrics on Egym to normal lifting: incredible doms. what?

That does seem odd, but part of why DOMS occurs is theorized to be d/t relative novelty of activation pattern.  

Are you comparing machine work with the E-gym to "normal liften"  machine work?... 

If you de-learned stabilizing during free weights and went from E-gym to free weights, then the activation pattern (after no free weights for a few months) could explain the above.

Are there ambitious Lifters who have done that over months and years? Are there any positive long term results in doing this? The studys about isokinetics are not helping at all. That isokinetics results in strength adaptation yes, but are they worth the opportunity costs? (you could be lifting "normal" instead)

I think you answered this in that you're getting better gains with the E-gym.

DOMS is indicative of the insult but if it's excessive - beyond your recovery ability - then your gains will not be as good as with a regimen where the insult / stimulus / DOMS is better matched to what you can recover from.

Anyway, thank you very much for your time =)
And thank you for Fortitude Training, read and trained in 2021, in the end it helped me to reduce weekly volume, thats a big thing.

You're welcome!!!

As far as carry over from the E-gym to normal training, I'm not surprised as specificity of training rules the roost here.   Also I'd not try to compare loads with the E-gym and the "equivalent" normal (free weight / "isotonic") training. 

-S

[Stefan]

Those are very cool machines!!!

They updated software, but if remember correctly, they tagged these modes:

normal: dont remember

normal-adaptive : Hypertrophy

excentric-overloaded: Resilience

isokinetic:Max-Force

explosive: dont remember



and the standard-rotation was to to 6 workouts with increasing weights in one mode and then go the next.

OK, but below you also say: " Egym and cycled between excentric overloaded and isometric."  (See also your first post.)

yes, i only rotated between these two modes.

Please clarify if you would.  Do you mean here that in terms of DOMS, having to control the transition from eccentric to concentric is what you think is causing DOMS, mostly, during the regular training?...

My experience was that the excrentic-phase ist the main cause of doms, f.e. i did slow excentric PullUps and Dips in the past and they hit hard on doms. But after doing very heavy excentrics on these machines with getting not much doms...

- after unterstanding what is the main difference between normal lifting und egym i went into testing mode: all combinations around concentric/excentric/stretched position. This took a long time cause i wanted to flatten the repeated bout effect for good results.

When we put exercises to the side, which we have not done for some time, and also big volume and intensity jumps, i can at least for me say: the main reason for Doms is the part around the Stretched. Not only the excrentic, the concentric also.

I bet if i do triceps-kicksbacks tomororrow, after not doing them for years, multiple hard sets, i will get nearly zero doms. If i do only the kickbacks for a month and then do multiple hard sets skullcrushers: sore.

As far as carry over from the E-gym to normal training, I'm not surprised as specificity of training rules the roost here.

Yes, but specific-strength is not my goal, its hypertrophy, and

then i integrated standard lifting back: i tried to use machines/setups which where as close to the Egym-machines as possible.

In the end my test tells nearly nothing about hypertrophy gains, even if with before after dexa it would be difficult. It would have told me something if the normal lifting had also improved, but it didnt happen. So, experience of other lifters from a long term hypertrophy point would be really interesting.



At least i got the contiuous restistance adaption with a very heavy start out of the isokinetic-mode, trying to implement this in normal lifting. I have done lots of dropsets in my training-life, but to start very heavy (>=80% 1RM) and dont rack when dropping Weight (help from others) is a different animal. Heavy Lifting, all effetive Reps, a really good pump and a great muscle feeling all in one set, wow.

Stefan

[Scott Stevenson]

They updated software, but if remember correctly, they tagged these modes:

normal: dont remember

normal-adaptive : Hypertrophy

excentric-overloaded: Resilience

isokinetic:Max-Force

explosive: dont remember

Cool, but really doesn't say much about the nature of  the loading.  

and the standard-rotation was to to 6 workouts with increasing weights in one mode and then go the next.
yes, i only rotated between these two modes.

You wrote "i trained only excentric-overloaded and isokinetic because of real heavy excentric in both settings

And you also wrote: " Egym and cycled between excentric overloaded and isometric."

Eccentric and isokinetic or isometric?...   I think you meant isokinetic.

My experience was that the excrentic-phase ist the main cause of doms, f.e. i did slow excentric PullUps and Dips in the past and they hit hard on doms. But after doing very heavy excentrics on these machines with getting not much doms...

i trained only excentric-overloaded and isokinetic because of real heavy excentric in both settings