Help Upper lower FT split

[Laurance gerard]

I tried searching this topic and scrolling thru the forum but was unable to find anything. I don’t know if it’s because I’m using a phone app….

I attempted Tier 1 blast as written but my legs are unable to recover between the first two loading / pump days. Im not a fan of training sore and have a tendency to get very tired and lots of brain fog if I push it to hard and too often. I really like the way FT is laid out and want to use this training style so I started doing the loading and pump for upper on day 1 and loading and pump for lower on day 2. Is this the best approach or is there an other option? I’ve read the book and the re read it because I’ll admit I am a slow learner and over thinker haha

If it has been discussed and someone is kind enough to direct me to the post that would appreciated.

Thanks


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[Scott Stevenson]

Hey Laurance!

Time well tell (if you're meticulous with tracking and and paying attention to signs of progress), but that's certainly an approach that could very well work for you.

Lumping the volume into few training sessions during the week as you have below is a training frequency that matches very closely to the DC training two way split, which is VERY successful. 

Over a Week, DC would look like:

M: Lower (& Biceps)
W: Upper
F: Lower (and Biceps)


What you're doing:
M: Lower (Loading and Pump)
W: Upper (Loading and Pump)
F: Lower Muscle Rounds
S: Upper Muscle Rounds

I intentionally set up FT so that these kinds of variations would be easy to implement, i.e., the structuring into Blocks of Set Types makes mixing and matching easy to do and still use the Volume Tiers as I've laid them out.

The other option that folks like, which you probably found when searching, for those who like to train (or be in the gym rather) more frequently is to stretch Day 1 and Day 2 out over 4 days by doing Loading (lower), Pump (upper), Pump (lower), Loading (upper) spread out over 4 days respectively.

-Scott

I tried searching this topic and scrolling thru the forum but was unable to find anything.  I don’t know if it’s because I’m using a phone app….

I attempted Tier 1 blast as written but my legs are unable to recover between the first two loading / pump days.  Im not a fan of training sore and have a tendency to get very tired and lots of brain fog if I push it to hard and too often. I really like the way FT is laid out and want to use this training style so  I started doing the loading and pump for upper on day 1 and loading and pump for lower on day 2.  Is this the best approach or is there an other option?  I’ve read the book and the re read it because I’ll admit I am a slow learner and over thinker  haha

If it has been discussed and someone is kind enough to direct me to the post that would appreciated. 

Thanks


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[Laurance gerard]

Hey Laurance!

Time well tell (if you're meticulous with tracking and and paying attention to signs of progress), but that's certainly an approach that could very well work for you.

Lumping the volume into few training sessions during the week as you have below is a training frequency that matches very closely to the DC training two way split, which is VERY successful. 

Over a Week, DC would look like:

M: Lower (& Biceps)
W: Upper
F: Lower (and Biceps)


What you're doing:
M: Lower (Loading and Pump)
W: Upper (Loading and Pump)
F: Lower Muscle Rounds
S: Upper Muscle Rounds

I intentionally set up FT so that these kinds of variations would be easy to implement, i.e., the structuring into Blocks of Set Types makes mixing and matching easy to do and still use the Volume Tiers as I've laid them out.

The other option that folks like, which you probably found when searching, for those who like to train (or be in the gym rather) more frequently is to stretch Day 1 and Day 2 out over 4 days by doing Loading (lower), Pump (upper), Pump (lower), Loading (upper) spread out over 4 days respectively.

-Scott

Perfect. I also thought about maybe leaving some reps in the tank on legs but then remembered “when in doubt train harder” haha


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[Scott Stevenson]

Perfect.  I also thought about maybe leaving some reps in the tank on legs but then remembered “when in doubt train harder” haha


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LOL!  

Yes, I think that suggestion generally fits for most folks, although of course, volume training can have it's place for the purposes of novelty of stimulus (in various ways), refreshing psychologically, etc.

-S

[Laurance gerard]

I prefer to completely trash my cns with grinder reps [emoji23] ugh you and Scott slacking on muscle minds. I need my fix


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[Scott Stevenson]

I prefer to completely trash my cns with grinder reps [emoji23] ugh you and Scott slacking on muscle minds.  I need my fix

I hear you!

I don't think we've missed too many podcasts...  Actually, I can't recall b/c I've been doing so many lately.

-S

[powerhouse_ad]

Interesting topic, as this has been something that has been on my mind as a potential tweak to the program to make it suit my personal needs a little better.

Due to work commitments, the days that I am able to get a training session in can vary hugely. As a result, workouts can end up having to be bunched up on consecutive days without me being able to plan in advance which days are going to be rest days that week. I kind of just have to get to the gym when the day ends up allowing it.

Something that never feels quite right to me is having the load/pump days back to back, which got me thinking about moving the upper pump work onto the upper load day and the same with lower.

In my mind the potential down sides to this are:
1) there is a slightly reduced frequency of hitting each muscle.
2) maybe the pump sets cannot be hit with quite the same intensity due to the muscle already being fatigued from the loading work (although I actually see this as preferable to hitting the pump sets when sore from loading the previous day).

In my mind the above potential down sides are unlikely to hinder progress and just make the system a bit more suitable to my particular situation.

I would be very interested in your take on the above Scott as I suspect that this was a setup that you may have even considered when designing the program, but ended up ruling it out.

Cheers, Ad.


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[Scott Stevenson]

Interesting topic, as this has been something that has been on my mind as a potential tweak to the program to make it suit my personal needs a little better.

Due to work commitments, the days that I am able to get a training session in can vary hugely.  As a result, workouts can end up having to be bunched up on consecutive days without me being able to plan in advance which days are going to be rest days that week.  I kind of just have to get to the gym when the day ends up allowing it.

Something that never feels quite right to me is having the load/pump days back to back, which got me thinking about moving the upper pump work onto the upper load day and the same with lower. 

In my mind the potential down sides to this are:
1) there is a slightly reduced frequency of hitting each muscle.
2) maybe the pump sets cannot be hit with quite the same intensity due to the muscle already being fatigued from the loading work (although I actually see this as preferable to hitting the pump sets when sore from loading the previous day). 

In my mind the above potential down sides are unlikely to hinder progress and just make the system a bit more suitable to my particular situation.

I would be very interested in your take on the above Scott as I suspect that this was a setup that you may have even considered when designing the program, but ended up ruling it out.

Cheers, Ad.


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Hey Bud!

Thanks for the post.

There's not optimal frequency combination that will fit everyone: Distributing a given volume of training over fewer or greater days could be better for one person, but not the other.  OTOH, a given frequency might allow more or less training volume from which one could recover for different folks.

So, yes, there are potential advantages and disadvantages in changing frequency.  And "junk volume" is a possibility if one's trying to do to much on a given day (when the muscle is fatigued).  

(Check this podcast for some relevant science: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZGxhhVAygI)

What you're feeling just doesn't seem right could be due to several things, but if some part of that is that you sense you could / would be training harder and making better progress in terms of performance (weight and reps) then go with that, I would say, as a first principle.

The configuration that results in the best training progress is likely one that will give you some of the best muscle growth. This is not to say that volume overload (without noticeable performance enhancement) or other approaches that don't readily lend themselves to the log book can't be effective, but generally, for most / the average guy, I suspect most progress in trying to become really large will come from whatever approach results in progress in training loads (even if "progressive overload" is not the focus for that person), the one that makes him (or her) into the biggest bad ass in the gym.     Those are the big stones / meat n' potatoes and the can be served up in various ways.   (With Masterpiece BBQ sauce and fries, or with chips and with a pint of Ale.)

-S

[powerhouse_ad]

Hey Bud!

Thanks for the post.

There's not optimal frequency combination that will fit everyone: Distributing a given volume of training over fewer or greater days could be better for one person, but not the other.  OTOH, a given frequency might allow more or less training volume from which one could recover for different folks.

So, yes, there are potential advantages and disadvantages in changing frequency.  And "junk volume" is a possibility if one's trying to do to much on a given day (when the muscle is fatigued).  

(Check this podcast for some relevant science: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZGxhhVAygI)

What you're feeling just doesn't seem right could be due to several things, but if some part of that is that you sense you could / would be training harder and making better progress in terms of performance (weight and reps) then go with that, I would say, as a first principle.

The configuration that results in the best training progress is likely one that will give you some of the best muscle growth. This is not to say that volume overload (without noticeable performance enhancement) or other approaches that don't readily lend themselves to the log book can't be effective, but generally, for most / the average guy, I suspect most progress in trying to become really large will come from whatever approach results in progress in training loads (even if "progressive overload" is not the focus for that person), the one that makes him (or her) into the biggest bad ass in the gym.     Those are the big stones / meat n' potatoes and the can be served up in various ways.   (With Masterpiece BBQ sauce and fries, or with chips and with a pint of Ale.)

-S

Thanks for the reply Scott.

I really enjoyed that podcast. The dive into the individual responses from the Damas study was particularly interesting and is especially applicable in my current training ‘dilemma’. Time to make the adjustment to the program discussed above and see how it goes for me I think!

As you suggest, even if the benefit from moving the pump work to the load day of the same body part is purely an improvement in the way it ‘feels’ to me, if that results in me training harder, it’s probably a good thing. I’m mindful of deviating from the plan as it’s laid out, but have to be honest with myself in terms of how my current work commitments impact on training days.

Ps. Slightly off topic and just something that comes to mind from the discussion of training variety in the podcast (and just me thinking out loud really). With the different set types you have created, i imagine that even if an individual had a strong preference for once per week body part “bro split” style training for whatever reason, your fortitude training set types could be a very good way to build a session. For example, the chest day could look something like - Incline dumbbell press (loading set), flat machine press (muscle round) and cable fly (pump set). Your volume tier system could also be applied. This does run the risk of getting into the realms of junk volume I guess, but probably no more than what the typical “bro split” style trainers are currently doing anyway and at least this way, there is good variety in the stimulus type.

Cheers, Ad.


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[Scott Stevenson]

Thanks for the reply Scott.

I really enjoyed that podcast.  The dive into the individual responses from the Damas study was particularly interesting and is especially applicable in my current training ‘dilemma’.  Time to make the adjustment to the program discussed above and see how it goes for me I think!

As you suggest, even if the benefit from moving the pump work to the load day of the same body part is purely an improvement in the way it ‘feels’ to me, if that results in me training harder, it’s probably a good thing.  I’m mindful of deviating from the plan as it’s laid out, but have to be honest with myself in terms of  how my current work commitments impact on training days.

Yes, you have have to make due with the schedule that life and priorities allow, for sure.  

And there is the possibility, too that diminished loading / effort / reps / stimulus during Pump sets might actually be such that the overall stimulus is reduced, but thereby more optimal given the frequency and how you personally recover.  

Honestly, I suspect there are probably various combinations of frequency and volume that might balance out to the same rte of gains for a given individual.  E.g.  A higher (weekly) volume, lower frequency might pan out the same as a lower volume, higher frequency (fewer sets, but more stimulating d/t being fresher for each) for someone.

Ps.  Slightly off topic and just something that comes to mind from the discussion of training variety in the podcast (and just me thinking out loud really).  With the different set types you have created, i imagine that even if an individual had a strong preference for once per week body part “bro split” style training for whatever reason, your fortitude training set types could be a very good way to build a session.  For example, the chest day could look something like - Incline dumbbell press (loading set), flat machine press (muscle round) and cable fly (pump set).  Your volume tier system could also be applied.  This does run the risk of getting into the realms of junk volume I guess, but probably no more than what the typical “bro split” style trainers are currently doing anyway and at least this way, there is good variety in the stimulus type.

Cheers, Ad.

That's totally on topic, actually and one way to combine things for sure. I have wondered if there could ever be a kind of interference effect (as seen with the greatly disparate stimuli of resistance vs. endurance exercise) if one were to do heavy loading on the same day as really high rep work, but I think any sense of that might be mistaken for what is actually a phenomenon of simply doing too much on a given day, e.g. trying to bang out a couple widow makers after doing a good bit of heavy work.

And, it could be that some grow better (in some vs. other muscle groups) from high vs. lower reps, such that the Set Types that are least effective for a person might not add to the growth stimulus and/or mostly cut into recovery.

But for most, I suspect (and this is why I set up FT in this way) that you're covering all bases in doing heavy, moderate and "lighter" training (with varies set type configurations). There's something to say for this approach when you look at fiber type specific growth (a very little literature points in this direction) for heavy vs. lighter rep training, so there's that.

-S