Keto and FT can it work ?

[mikeland91]

Can it work assuming kals are high enough?
Also what would you recommend intra and post WO on keto ?

[Scott Stevenson]

Can it work assuming kals are high enough?
Also what would you recommend intra and post WO on keto ?

First, we must define our terms:

What is "keto?" (What diet are you proposing?)

What does "work" mean? (What is the goal?)

Also, what would the advantages be to the above vs. some other approach?

-S

[mikeland91]

First, we must define our terms:

What is "keto?" (What diet are you proposing?)

What does "work" mean? (What is the goal?)

Also, what would the advantages be to the above vs. some other approach?

-S

So bassicly just zero carbs (not counting greens , I love veg lol )
V hight fat and moderate to hight pro ,

So it would just be an experiment for me realy as , my non training days as usually zero carb , or carbs only before bed , but I just function of very low carb high fat , so mainly just wondering can you still gain size in keto , and recover just aswell ?

[Scott Stevenson]

So bassicly just zero carbs (not counting greens , I love veg lol )
V hight fat and moderate to hight pro ,

So it would just be an experiment for me realy as , my non training days as usually zero carb , or carbs only before bed , but I just function of very low carb high fat , so mainly just wondering can you still gain size in keto , and recover just aswell ?

You can still gain size, yes. I would say - and this comes from years and years of playing around with keto diets and discussing this on a list serv (actually with Lyle McDonald and others many years ago) - that you will not gain as well on a keto only diet (that is not cyclical in nature, e.g., at least a CKD or a TKD).

There may be some scientific data on the way out suggesting that one can gain just as well on a keto diet once a carb-up is permitted (to fill up the previously carb-depleted muscle cells), but I will await replication of this data. It simply doesn't fit well with experiences that I've had and many others.

If you did want to try to gain on keto only diet, I would say that using a lower volume training regime might be your best bet, simply because you'd be skirting the issue of glycogen depletion that can greatly impact training loading during a higher volume regime.

If you're just having a single carb measl 3-4 x / week, you may be pretty well keto adapted already, so you could just drop those meals and get a pretty good idea of how doing so long term might affect you. For someone not keto adapted, the first few weeks of the diet would not necessarily reflect how well they might do a month or so into it.

I think it would come down to how well you gain, not whether you can or cannot when following a keto vs. a non-keto diet.

Without carbs you can run into training intensity (loading) issues. You'll also miss out on the cortisol-reducing effects of an intra-workout drink and anabolic potential of elevating insulin (which can increase protein synthesis when elevated with hyperaminoacidemia). The cell swelling effect of high levels of glycogen status will also tip the cell toward anabolism, too, if eating more carbs.

So, keto would be disadvantageous from a "cellular swelling" (intrinsic anabolism), hormonal (call it extrinsic anabolic effect) and training intensity (stimulus) standpoint.

-S

[mikeland91]

Wow !
Thank you Scott , that's an awsome answer .
Yeah I guess it wouldn't be to much of a shock to me as , like you said , the majority of my food intake through the week it mainly fat and protein , with carbs only intra and post ,
I suppose the only way to really know is give it a go !
Say for intra workout drink , would it be wise to keep all the ingredients I use now (pepto pro, EAAS,so on ..) and just simply take the carbs out ?
And post work out ? Would you keep fats in or no far post , I'm guessing if your keeping fat in with pwo meal it'd be in the form of MCTs ?

I have read before to expect a drop in intensity and strenght while on keto , but I do have a cruies phase soon ..(depending on how well the numbers go up,or down !in the next few sessions )
So this may be a good time to give it a fair little run
Again ! Thank you Scott

[Scott Stevenson]

Wow !
Thank you Scott , that's an awsome answer .
Yeah I guess it wouldn't be to much of a shock to me as , like you said , the majority of my food intake through the week it mainly fat and protein , with carbs only intra and post ,
I suppose the only way to really know is give it a go !
Say for intra workout drink , would it be wise to keep all the ingredients I use now (pepto pro, EAAS,so on ..) and just simply take the carbs out ?
And post work out ? Would you keep fats in or no far post , I'm guessing if your keeping fat in with pwo meal it'd be in the form of MCTs ?

I have read before to expect a drop in intensity and strenght while on keto , but I do have a cruies phase soon ..(depending on how well the numbers go up,or down !in the next few sessions )
So this may be a good time to give it a fair little run
Again ! Thank you Scott

You're welcome!

My answer would depend on whether you simply want to experiment with a lack of carbs or you want to stay in a ketogenic state per se.

Too much protein can disrupt ketogenesis, but I would suggest keeping the protein high and adding a substantial dose of glutamine (e.g., 20g if no GI distress) to the intra-shake. Glutamine can serve as a source for glycogen resynthesis in skeletal muscle.

You can use MCT's as well, but they can cause GI distress, too if doses are too high. MCT's bypass the potentially rate-limiting step in oxidation of fats involving L-carnitine acyltransferase, so they can be used more rapidly as fuel during exercise than can long chain fatty acid-based fat sources.

Within limits, you could replace the kcal you remove from carbs with a combination of MCT and glutamine which could serve to provide fuel and fuel stores during and after training, respectively.

-S

[LG1]

You're welcome!

My answer would depend on whether you simply want to experiment with a lack of carbs or you want to stay in a ketogenic state per se.

Too much protein can disrupt ketogenesis, but I would suggest keeping the protein high and adding a substantial dose of glutamine (e.g., 20g if no GI distress) to the intra-shake. Glutamine can serve as a source for glycogen resynthesis in skeletal muscle.

You can use MCT's as well, but they can cause GI distress, too if doses are too high. MCT's bypass the potentially rate-limiting step in oxidation of fats involving L-carnitine acyltransferase, so they can be used more rapidly as fuel during exercise than can long chain fatty acid-based fat sources.

Within limits, you could replace the kcal you remove from carbs with a combination of MCT and glutamine which could serve to provide fuel and fuel stores during and after training, respectively.

-S

Would this be the second best option after the standard intra protocol that you prescribe with carbs etc?

[Scott Stevenson]

Would this be the second best option after the standard intra protocol that you prescribe with carbs etc?

That depends on the first sentence of the passage you quoted: "My answer would depend on whether you simply want to experiment with a lack of carbs or you want to stay in a ketogenic state per se."

A TKD approach works well, too.

-S

[mikeland91]

So to make sure iv under stood , you would keep fat in post workout meal , but in the form MCT?

[LG1]

That depends on the first sentence of the passage you quoted: "My answer would depend on whether you simply want to experiment with a lack of carbs or you want to stay in a ketogenic state per se."

A TKD approach works well, too.

-S

Experimenting with lack of carbs in my case.

Also would the actual extra Virgin coconut oil work instead of the mct or does it specifically have to be mct?