FT Questions....

[Scott Stevenson]

Hey guys just a quick question about loading sets for day 1.

Started on tier 1 this week, day 1 was on Saturday. My rotation went:

Smith Bulgarian Splits Squats/ Close stance horizontal leg press/ DB stiff leg dead lift.

My question is, should I be hitting concentric failure on all 3 of those sets since I'm on doing 1 set of each? That's what I did, but not sure if that was correct. Since none of them are truly "isolation exercises" should I only be failing on the last exercise (DB SLDL)?

Thanks!

Dealer's choice to fail on isolation exercises.

Fail only on the last set of your compound exercise (which could be just 1 set if you're doing Tier I.

So, right out of the gait, you're not using isolation vs. compound exercises. That's an OK twist on the program to use those exercises, but if you CAN do other exercises, I would.

A main goal idea of FT is to limit CNS taxation. Taking all three of those to failure isn't serving that. (You might be able to recover, of course, as you could have 3 sets to failure doing Tier II or III.) However, failure on a knee extension is a world of difference from failure on a split squat.

You're also missing out on the pre-fatiguing quality that can be had with putting isolation exercises before compound exercises.

You'll have to commander two machines (or a rack) do do the split squats and the leg press, too, which can be tough on some days. (Isolation exercises sometimes need to be done on the fly if the gym is busy / someone snags your machine. It's much safer to do this if for instance you need to switch to a different ham curl - and use a higher rep range - than if you try to use a rack / machine like that.)

Anyhow... I could go on, but the real question I think is why you chose those exercises (right off the bat on your first run at the program).

-S

[B_Forge]

Dealer's choice to fail on isolation exercises.

Fail only on the last set of your compound exercise (which could be just 1 set if you're doing Tier I.

So, right out of the gait, you're not using isolation vs. compound exercises. That's an OK twist on the program to use those exercises, but if you CAN do other exercises, I would.

A main goal idea of FT is to limit CNS taxation. Taking all three of those to failure isn't serving that. (You might be able to recover, of course, as you could have 3 sets to failure doing Tier II or III.) However, failure on a knee extension is a world of difference from failure on a split squat.

You're also missing out on the pre-fatiguing quality that can be had with putting isolation exercises before compound exercises.

You'll have to commander two machines (or a rack) do do the split squats and the leg press, too, which can be tough on some days. (Isolation exercises sometimes need to be done on the fly if the gym is busy / someone snags your machine. It's much safer to do this if for instance you need to switch to a different ham curl - and use a higher rep range - than if you try to use a rack / machine like that.)

Anyhow... I could go on, but the real question I think is why you chose those exercises (right off the bat on your first run at the program).

-S

Roger that. Gym just has limited equipment, so was saving the use of leg extensions and ham curls for pump sets later in the week so that I wasn't doing to same exercises in the same week. But I can definitely see how that's probably not the best way to go about it in terms of taxing the CNS. Will switch up my subsequent rotations to eliminate that and be a little more creative for finding isolating quad and hamstring movements.

Also, since I did 3 compound movements Day 1 what i'll do today for day 2 is just use 2 isolation movements for my pump sets (i.e. leg extension and ham curl) instead of doing a thigh exercise to try and limit possible CNS taxation for this week, then reset my rotations next week.

Hope that makes sense

[Scott Stevenson]

Roger that. Gym just has limited equipment, so was saving the use of leg extensions and ham curls for pump sets later in the week so that I wasn't doing to same exercises in the same week. But I can definitely see how that's probably not the best way to go about it in terms of taxing the CNS. Will switch up my subsequent rotations to eliminate that and be a little more creative for finding isolating quad and hamstring movements.

Also, since I did 3 compound movements Day 1 what i'll do today for day 2 is just use 2 isolation movements for my pump sets (i.e. leg extension and ham curl) instead of doing a thigh exercise to try and limit possible CNS taxation for this week, then reset my rotations next week.

Hope that makes sense

Sounds good!

-S

[Kabhattacharya]

Ok so I posted this up on my training log but given I've been gone for a while I'm also putting it up here hoping it gets more eyes on it so I can get more answers from all the experienced members out there

Ok so I've been absent for a while - work, kid on the way, changing jobs, travel, etc. have been hectic. So long story short

After my last burn out I've successfully had 2 blasts and 2 cruises - all at Tier 1 - small gym lots of members difficult to zig zag or hog lots of pieces of equipment

But what's more important are the questions that these two blasts have given rise to.... I welcome any and all feedback / comments / thoughts / and personal experiences as I'm looking to make the most out of my next blast starting either at the end of this week or next weekend

1. During the blasts I realized, especially with upper body pushing movements as I tried to keep progressing my rep range kept falling down from 8 ish to 6 ish to 4 ish

2. At that low a range I personally found that the very first rep felt like a grinder, so by the time I hit failure at 4 1/2 reps or 5 reps or whatever - it wasn't really the muscle that was failing - it was the damn weight that wouldn't move - I know this sounds weird but honestly that's what the experience felt like

3. Muscle Rounds for back - I've personally found these to be a real challenge - not so much for arms, legs, chest, or shoulders, but back is a killer. I don't have a lot of machines in my gym so MRs are typically loading movements with a lighter load I.E. ~ 15 - 18 rep max that gets built on. So using barbell rows, or t bar rows, or scott bar rows or smith deads, or partial deads, or full range deads just didn't make sense I lost more energy just getting the damn weight into position as the cluster sets progressed and I would quickly see a breakdown in form, e.g. I was using ~120 kgs on v bar t bar rows and hit failure on my 5th cluster set I.E. ~20 reps. However, I personally know that 120 kgs is a weight I can rep out for 20 to 25 in a straight set - similar experiences for other back movements.

4. This gave rise to me experimenting in my last cruise to overcome the issue described above, instead of muscle rounds doing straight sets in the 15 to 18 rep range. Believe it or not it was some of the best progression I've seen - in about 3 weeks of cruising I ended up using 90% to 95% of my 4 to 6 rep max for straight sets of 16, 18, and sometimes even 20 reps - and because they didn't start getting into grinder reps till about rep 12 or 13 my elbows, shoulders, knees, wrists etc have never felt better

5. Now this has me at a conundrum - I'm 31, not old but not a 24 year old young buck who can throw around 4 rep maxes week in and out without consequence, I have suffered from severe spondiolysis (sp?) I have dislocated my right shoulder in the past, and I have other wear and tear across my body. So the higher reps seem to be, at least, conducive to better joint health as well as conducive to good progression

6. So now I'm left with these experiences and more questions - this is where I'm calling on every FT trainee out there - even Dr Stevenson - if you have the time or inclination to read this long post and reply

Q1. What are your views on keeping my loading sets in the 15 to 18 rep range and really grinding it out week after week in that range? I know this will over time, drop to 12 to 15, then 10 to 12, then 8 to 10 but I have the sense if I'm working with 90% of my 5RM for 15 - by the time I work my way down to 8 to 10 reps my 5RM itself would have improved significantly

Q2. MRs are supposed to be 15 to 18 RM kind of weight, if my loading sets are in that range what do I do about MRs? As I understand it FT uses a variety of rep ranges - which indirectly translate to a variety of Loads and TUTs to provide a multiplicity of stimuli to the system - so how do I figure out my MR work loads?

Q3. Given my shortcoming with MRs for back thickness and even width movements - is it ok for me to straight set them? Surely, anyone reading this can understand the absurdity of using a heavier weight for more reps in a straight set than an MR

Q4. Does anyone else have similar experiences or am I just uniquely strange in all of this?


Thanks a lot, and its good to be back and posting

- Joshua

[Scott Stevenson]

Hey Josh,

Sorry to hear some of these issues have gone on so long. Good news is I think a lot of this is easily remedied.

Ok so I posted this up on my training log but given I've been gone for a while I'm also putting it up here hoping it gets more eyes on it so I can get more answers from all the experienced members out there

Ok so I've been absent for a while - work, kid on the way, changing jobs, travel, etc. have been hectic. So long story short

After my last burn out I've successfully had 2 blasts and 2 cruises - all at Tier 1 - small gym lots of members difficult to zig zag or hog lots of pieces of equipment

But what's more important are the questions that these two blasts have given rise to.... I welcome any and all feedback / comments / thoughts / and personal experiences as I'm looking to make the most out of my next blast starting either at the end of this week or next weekend

1. During the blasts I realized, especially with upper body pushing movements as I tried to keep progressing my rep range kept falling down from 8 ish to 6 ish to 4 ish

2. At that low a range I personally found that the very first rep felt like a grinder, so by the time I hit failure at 4 1/2 reps or 5 reps or whatever - it wasn't really the muscle that was failing - it was the damn weight that wouldn't move - I know this sounds weird but honestly that's what the experience felt like

This could come from a few things:

• Lack of sufficient warm-up. Your CNS is not ready for the heavy set and it simply feels like a ton of brick.

• You're not gaining weight in general, which will translate into strength. (If you're dieting, this may be very normal)

• Poor ability to focus your form on the trained muscle and perhaps a bit of a ballistic training style. Rep speed and momentary strength during a set drops off more quickly when training this way vs. slower controlled movement.

• Setting up your exercises properly, e.g, so the the muscle you want to train is activated first as you start movement, or at least it's the muscle that driving then movement. When training back width for instance, I'd want to be able to see and you be able feel that your'e initiating the movement with he lats (plus several other cues there.)

• You're not rotating your exercises out as you should.

3. Muscle Rounds for back - I've personally found these to be a real challenge - not so much for arms, legs, chest, or shoulders, but back is a killer. I don't have a lot of machines in my gym so MRs are typically loading movements with a lighter load I.E. ~ 15 - 18 rep max that gets built on. So using barbell rows, or t bar rows, or scott bar rows or smith deads, or partial deads, or full range deads just didn't make sense I lost more energy just getting the damn weight into position as the cluster sets progressed and I would quickly see a breakdown in form, e.g. I was using ~120 kgs on v bar t bar rows and hit failure on my 5th cluster set I.E. ~20 reps. However, I personally know that 120 kgs is a weight I can rep out for 20 to 25 in a straight set - similar experiences for other back movements.

4. This gave rise to me experimenting in my last cruise to overcome the issue described above, instead of muscle rounds doing straight sets in the 15 to 18 rep range. Believe it or not it was some of the best progression I've seen - in about 3 weeks of cruising I ended up using 90% to 95% of my 4 to 6 rep max for straight sets of 16, 18, and sometimes even 20 reps - and because they didn't start getting into grinder reps till about rep 12 or 13 my elbows, shoulders, knees, wrists etc have never felt better

Your'e free to do as you like of course, but what is missing with the MR's is simply appropriate set up for them.

Use daisy chains for T-bar rows, seated rows, etc. so you can have the bar / handle in the right position to start the movement. (The bar / handle is right where you need it to start your first rep of set in the MR.)

Use a power rack to do BO rows, starting each rep with the bar on the safety bars (no stepping back and forth).

As I mentioned before, I'm not a fan of folks using full deads or rack deads (the latter being a more OK for some) b/c of the risks of form breakdown fatigue and a low back injury.

5. Now this has me at a conundrum - I'm 31, not old but not a 24 year old young buck who can throw around 4 rep maxes week in and out without consequence, I have suffered from severe spondiolysis (sp?) I have dislocated my right shoulder in the past, and I have other wear and tear across my body. So the higher reps seem to be, at least, conducive to better joint health as well as conducive to good progression

Are these injuries when doing FT (guessing not) or in the past? How are they now.

Are you making the most out of the stretches?...

6. So now I'm left with these experiences and more questions - this is where I'm calling on every FT trainee out there - even Dr Stevenson - if you have the time or inclination to read this long post and reply

Q1. What are your views on keeping my loading sets in the 15 to 18 rep range and really grinding it out week after week in that range? I know this will over time, drop to 12 to 15, then 10 to 12, then 8 to 10 but I have the sense if I'm working with 90% of my 5RM for 15 - by the time I work my way down to 8 to 10 reps my 5RM itself would have improved significantly

You can create progress with progressive overload in any rep range. You simply miss out on the possibly synergy of doing so across he loading spectrum (Loading sets > MR > Pump sets).

I think if you say in the 9-12 range (still within the range set ou tin the book) and not go to below 8 reps, you might fare better.

Q2. MRs are supposed to be 15 to 18 RM kind of weight, if my loading sets are in that range what do I do about MRs? As I understand it FT uses a variety of rep ranges - which indirectly translate to a variety of Loads and TUTs to provide a multiplicity of stimuli to the system - so how do I figure out my MR work loads?

I think if you correct the Loading sets, you can do he MR's as they have been outlined. Still, you'd have variety in doing straight sets vs cluster sets, even if he loads were similar.

I think that figuring this out however, so you can train heavy (relative term) is in your favor in general.

(A thought here is that you can translate the pump set mentality - laser-like focus on a particular muscle group or groups into your loading sets. The main thing different here is load.)

Q3. Given my shortcoming with MRs for back thickness and even width movements - is it ok for me to straight set them? Surely, anyone reading this can understand the absurdity of using a heavier weight for more reps in a straight set than an MR

See above.

Q4. Does anyone else have similar experiences or am I just uniquely strange in all of this?

We're all snowflakes, my friend.

Thanks a lot, and its good to be back and posting

- Joshua

Hope this helps!

-S

[Kabhattacharya]

Hi Scott

I've given some thought to your answers above and this is what I've decided to do - would love to get your thoughts on the same


1. Loading sets - keep the rep range 12 - 15 and just like a widow maker keep building on the load and maintaining reps until gradually over time I'm forced to bring it down - once it's down to 8 to 10 that's when the movement has to go

2. MR sets keep the load 18 to 20 and slow down the movement to be less ballistic and more controlled and progress week on week until the movement needs to be thrown

3. Pump - I've typically found working in the high rep range straight set style with partials at the end tends to work best for me so 25 to 40 rep

When you said using daisy chains for t bar rows what did you mean?

I always have a hard time feeling my chest work during pressing movements any suggestions?

I typically like working at a Tier I level and putting it all out in a single set max effort but am willing to make individual tweaks to chest to get more out of it?

Thanks

Joshua

[Scott Stevenson]

Hi Scott

I've given some thought to your answers above and this is what I've decided to do - would love to get your thoughts on the same


1. Loading sets - keep the rep range 12 - 15 and just like a widow maker keep building on the load and maintaining reps until gradually over time I'm forced to bring it down - once it's down to 8 to 10 that's when the movement has to go

Why not stay in the 10-12 range?...

(That technique - "just like a widow maker" is standard progressive overload, which is what you'd do with everything in DC, actually, as well as Loading sets in FT. I point that out just in case you hadn't been using that approach in some way...)

2. MR sets keep the load 18 to 20 and slow down the movement to be less ballistic and more controlled and progress week on week until the movement needs to be thrown

I'd not deny yourself the flexibility of changing exercises. In fact, I'd caution against that when it comes to MR's.

After you determine a load that fits the parameters of the MR, you no longer have to use a RM estimate, so the "18-20" is really immaterial. Really, the load for MR's is based on the where the failure point occurs int he MR (see the book), so here, you're just using a bit lighter load.

A better way to conceptualize this would be that you'll pick weights where your failure point is in the 6th set of the MR.

3. Pump - I've typically found working in the high rep range straight set style with partials at the end tends to work best for me so 25 to 40 rep

How do you know that that rep range works best for you?... (Best for you in terms of what?...)

As a general note, from your previous post, your rep max estimates don't match well in terms of predicting performacne during higher rep efforts.

For instance, you wrote: "I ended up using 90% to 95% of my 4 to 6 rep max for straight sets of 16, 18, and sometimes even 20 reps"

So, 95% of a 4 rep max on a barbell chest press might be a 6 reps max for most folks.

The point here is that I'd not rely on those RM measurements in your case, really. (You are probably an outlier here b/c you've not trained extensively in the heavy (<6RM) end of the spectrum)

When you said using daisy chains for t bar rows what did you mean?

Let me google that for you

I like these: Daisy chain loops for pulling, chins, lifts - IronMind-www.ironmind-store.com

I always have a hard time feeling my chest work during pressing movements any suggestions?

Keep your scapulae retracted during chest movements (don't let your shoulders "slump" forward) and ARCH your upper back.

Prefatigue the chest

Train lighter than you have been

Don't stop short on movements in terms of lock-out / end of the ROM. E.g., on a pec deck, be sure to use a FULL rom - as stretched as is safe and bring the hands to the mid-point of your body,. keeping the scapulae retracted.

I typically like working at a Tier I level and putting it all out in a single set max effort but am willing to make individual tweaks to chest to get more out of it?

I'd use isolation movements for your loading sets and only those pressing movements (machines, or BB - whichever) where you have a great connection with the pecs. Typically these will be machines where the plane of motion converges in the center (more like a fly)

Thanks

Joshua

Sure!

-S

[Kabhattacharya]

Why not stay in the 10-12 range?...

(That technique - "just like a widow maker" is standard progressive overload, which is what you'd do with everything in DC, actually, as well as Loading sets in FT. I point that out just in case you hadn't been using that approach in some way...)


I'd not deny yourself the flexibility of changing exercises. In fact, I'd caution against that when it comes to MR's.

After you determine a load that fits the parameters of the MR, you no longer have to use a RM estimate, so the "18-20" is really immaterial. Really, the load for MR's is based on the where the failure point occurs int he MR (see the book), so here, you're just using a bit lighter load.

A better way to conceptualize this would be that you'll pick weights where your failure point is in the 6th set of the MR.



How do you know that that rep range works best for you?... (Best for you in terms of what?...)

As a general note, from your previous post, your rep max estimates don't match well in terms of predicting performacne during higher rep efforts.

For instance, you wrote: "I ended up using 90% to 95% of my 4 to 6 rep max for straight sets of 16, 18, and sometimes even 20 reps"

So, 95% of a 4 rep max on a barbell chest press might be a 6 reps max for most folks.

The point here is that I'd not rely on those RM measurements in your case, really. (You are probably an outlier here b/c you've not trained extensively in the heavy (<6RM) end of the spectrum)



Let me google that for you

I like these: Daisy chain loops for pulling, chins, lifts - IronMind-www.ironmind-store.com



Keep your scapulae retracted during chest movements (don't let your shoulders "slump" forward) and ARCH your upper back.

Prefatigue the chest

Train lighter than you have been

Don't stop short on movements in terms of lock-out / end of the ROM. E.g., on a pec deck, be sure to use a FULL rom - as stretched as is safe and bring the hands to the mid-point of your body,. keeping the scapulae retracted.


I'd use isolation movements for your loading sets and only those pressing movements (machines, or BB - whichever) where you have a great connection with the pecs. Typically these will be machines where the plane of motion converges in the center (more like a fly)



Sure!

-S

Hey Dr Stevenson


Thank you very much for your responses - let me be one of the many to say it's really humbling to have someone at your level take the time out to answer what can at times be juvenile or asinine questions


Understood your points on the load selection - can and will do


Isolation movements for chest on loading sets? Hooo boy - this is going to be a difficult one for me to do - just mentally it's going to be difficult to move away from heavy pressing - but I trust your judgement and will give it a shot in this next blast once this tummy but has worked it's way out of my system


I was suggesting the high reps for pump sets simply based on the fact that I've found with experience straight sets in that rep range actually donjust that help create a crazy pump in the target muscle - although since as the book suggests hitting muscular failure isn't the goal with pump sets I'll add in techniques such as 5s in the hole drop sets 21s etc

For the isolation movements given what I have in my gym I was thinking of variations of cable chest presses with a focus on the hold in the contracted position to really feel the muscle so it would t be a flue nor would it a press in the truest sense it would be something of a flue press - does that approach make sense?

Since my dumbbell a only go upto 55lbs I was also thinking of adding bench bands I picked up from elite fts on dumbbell flye movements to make them mor challenging and the loading more appropriate - and finally I do have a seated converging chest press that maxes out at 100kg - I've already maxed this out at 22 reps with the stack so am thinking of adding bands for extra resistance here as well that's my plan of attack

Will keep the rep range in the 10-12 range as You've suggested - progressive overload has always been a priority for me but sometimes in the past I've gotten overzealous and made jumps too fast and too much of a jump but the moment I knew in the back of my head that I have to hit 15 reps sense would conquer my over zealousness and the increase would be 2.5lbs instead of 10 or 15 - I'll just have to be more disciplined with it

I do rotate exercises for loading and MR I have a selection of 3 I keep for each MR and each Loading movement per blast. The ones that are still going strong at the end of an last are retained for the next blast the ones that are burnt out are done away with and substituted for their respective loading type i.e. In some cases the exercise is still progressing in an MR but has stalled in a loading set so it'll stay in my MR section but be replaced in the loading set selection


When a trainee has come down with a tummy bug as I have and sticking to a diet is difficult simply because keeping the heavier foods down is challenging is it ok to sort of just eat light till you've recovered or would I be risking atrophy since my protein intake will have dropped significantly for a week or two? I know I've read studies where even in the absence of adequate nutrition hypertrophic was exhibited in rodent models


Thanks again for your inputs


Best
Joshua

[Kabhattacharya]

Was typing using my phone pls excuse the typos above ☝️️

[Scott Stevenson]

Hey Dr Stevenson


Thank you very much for your responses - let me be one of the many to say it's really humbling to have someone at your level take the time out to answer what can at times be juvenile or asinine questions


Understood your points on the load selection - can and will do


Isolation movements for chest on loading sets? Hooo boy - this is going to be a difficult one for me to do - just mentally it's going to be difficult to move away from heavy pressing - but I trust your judgement and will give it a shot in this next blast once this tummy but has worked it's way out of my system


I was suggesting the high reps for pump sets simply based on the fact that I've found with experience straight sets in that rep range actually donjust that help create a crazy pump in the target muscle - although since as the book suggests hitting muscular failure isn't the goal with pump sets I'll add in techniques such as 5s in the hole drop sets 21s etc

For the isolation movements given what I have in my gym I was thinking of variations of cable chest presses with a focus on the hold in the contracted position to really feel the muscle so it would t be a flue nor would it a press in the truest sense it would be something of a flue press - does that approach make sense?

Since my dumbbell a only go upto 55lbs I was also thinking of adding bench bands I picked up from elite fts on dumbbell flye movements to make them mor challenging and the loading more appropriate - and finally I do have a seated converging chest press that maxes out at 100kg - I've already maxed this out at 22 reps with the stack so am thinking of adding bands for extra resistance here as well that's my plan of attack

Will keep the rep range in the 10-12 range as You've suggested - progressive overload has always been a priority for me but sometimes in the past I've gotten overzealous and made jumps too fast and too much of a jump but the moment I knew in the back of my head that I have to hit 15 reps sense would conquer my over zealousness and the increase would be 2.5lbs instead of 10 or 15 - I'll just have to be more disciplined with it

I do rotate exercises for loading and MR I have a selection of 3 I keep for each MR and each Loading movement per blast. The ones that are still going strong at the end of an last are retained for the next blast the ones that are burnt out are done away with and substituted for their respective loading type i.e. In some cases the exercise is still progressing in an MR but has stalled in a loading set so it'll stay in my MR section but be replaced in the loading set selection

Roger the above.

The point of training is to stimulate the muscle you want to make grow. Whatever exercises get that done are the ones to go with. It's as simple as that. Hopefully, over time, you'll be able to connect better with the pecs and make damn near every "Chest" exercise a good one.

If that system of rotating exercises between Loading set and MR's is what you need to do, I understand, but the idea of auto regulation is to introduce variety that is in attunement with how you feel that day. This can feel unregimented to some - it's a higher level training notion that can be hard for less experienced trainers to use b/c they've spent so long building up to and practicing a disciplined approach to training.

When a trainee has come down with a tummy bug as I have and sticking to a diet is difficult simply because keeping the heavier foods down is challenging is it ok to sort of just eat light till you've recovered or would I be risking atrophy since my protein intake will have dropped significantly for a week or two? I know I've read studies where even in the absence of adequate nutrition hypertrophic was exhibited in rodent models

Just get better, man. Figure out what's up, get healthy ASAP and if you feel like training just to get out of the house, that can sometimes help. (Typically, trying to train full bore through an illness doesn't work out, IME.)

Thanks again for your inputs


Best
Joshua

You're welcome!

-S