Stalling / Regressing / Lack of Motivation

[nordan]

Scott.. My mannn (Or anyone else that fancies chipping in).

Just to bring you up to speed..

Have been in a lean gaining phase for around 3-4 months and gained around 8lbs total. My blast before last was 5 weeks long and I rebounded nicely which I haven't done before. My last blast was 6 weeks as I felt I could push a bit further this time round.. did a 2 week cruise as I felt the cruise during the 5 week blast with it being shorter, threw my training a little by coming back a couple of days earlier etc.
Anyway.. I felt that over the course of this "gaining phase" that I have gained a little bit of unwanted fat which is inevitable but more so throughout the last blast so felt like a mini cut would be in order so that I could in turn prolong the gaining phase for as long as possible. I decided upon this approach as last year I did a 16 week prep and it wrote me off completely.. I was doing 2 hours cardio a day + 2 hours training (tier 2 turbo) along with 18k steps via NEAT. This was not fun at all but one thing for sure was that I managed to keep food relatively high in comparison to other years as the deficit was brought on by expenditure. On top of this my lifts progressed for the majority of it and strength didn't diminish at all if I remember rightly. The end result of this was being lean but I was so over trained that it took me 3 months + to get back to feeling half decent so to speak. NEVER AGAIN!

So as mentioned my last blast was 6 weeks and then did a 2 week cruise. I decided that now would be a good time to do a mini cut of 5-6 weeks which is the duration of a blast. Immediately I dropped food by a few hundred calories and upped my expenditure via neat by approx 5000 steps up to 10k on both training and rest days (I kind of wanted to do this aggressively so that I could drop 5-6lbs of fat then repeat the slow process of adding muscle ASAP).

I have ran tier 1 basic the first week and now on tier 2.. I find my motivation really lacking soon as I get in the gym. The hours preceding etc I'm thinking to myself I am going to smash it but then soon as I get in I am thinking damn.. I cant wait to get out of here. On top of this my lifts are suffering, predominantly legs, I am finding legs really tough this time round both the pump sets and the load, everything feels heavy, the pump is brought on sooner so the sets are ending sooner due to accumulation of lactic acid which in turn results in total volume via load being significantly less.. Also my intensity feels a bit mehh...
I think to myself that I've worked a damn sight harder before, don't get my wrong.. I am focused throughout the set however I am thinking that the reason I am dilly dallying about is due to the influx of new gym goers so the equipment always seems to be hijacked or in use.

That is a little or a LOT of information regarding my situation so my question is

How do you think I should progress?

I'm not 100% sure but I believe that this (lift regression) has been brought on by the sudden increase of NEAT expenditure and me being on my feet a lot more but then I am thinking how I managed to get through the whole of my last prep relatively unscathed apart from it being a living hell at the time.
The sessions were still really productive.

Do you think I should get out of this mini-cut phase and return into my surplus gaining phase? I think my body is trying to tell me in a way that what I am doing right now is not favorable.

Do you think it's wise to take a few additional days rest?

My rest days I have 30-40g carbs from trace sources.. and on training days I have pro fat up until my pre workout meal where I then consume around 300g carbs peri.

I am wondering if I should take a few days off and eat up with some carbs etc.

Thanks

[Scott Stevenson]

Scott.. My mannn (Or anyone else that fancies chipping in).

Just to bring you up to speed..

Have been in a lean gaining phase for around 3-4 months and gained around 8lbs total. My blast before last was 5 weeks long and I rebounded nicely which I haven't done before. My last blast was 6 weeks as I felt I could push a bit further this time round.. did a 2 week cruise as I felt the cruise during the 5 week blast with it being shorter, threw my training a little by coming back a couple of days earlier etc.
Anyway.. I felt that over the course of this "gaining phase" that I have gained a little bit of unwanted fat which is inevitable but more so throughout the last blast so felt like a mini cut would be in order so that I could in turn prolong the gaining phase for as long as possible. I decided upon this approach as last year I did a 16 week prep and it wrote me off completely.. I was doing 2 hours cardio a day + 2 hours training (tier 2 turbo) along with 18k steps via NEAT. This was not fun at all but one thing for sure was that I managed to keep food relatively high in comparison to other years as the deficit was brought on by expenditure. On top of this my lifts progressed for the majority of it and strength didn't diminish at all if I remember rightly. The end result of this was being lean but I was so over trained that it took me 3 months + to get back to feeling half decent so to speak. NEVER AGAIN!

So as mentioned my last blast was 6 weeks and then did a 2 week cruise. I decided that now would be a good time to do a mini cut of 5-6 weeks which is the duration of a blast. Immediately I dropped food by a few hundred calories and upped my expenditure via neat by approx 5000 steps up to 10k on both training and rest days (I kind of wanted to do this aggressively so that I could drop 5-6lbs of fat then repeat the slow process of adding muscle ASAP).

I have ran tier 1 basic the first week and now on tier 2.. I find my motivation really lacking soon as I get in the gym. The hours preceding etc I'm thinking to myself I am going to smash it but then soon as I get in I am thinking damn.. I cant wait to get out of here. On top of this my lifts are suffering, predominantly legs, I am finding legs really tough this time round both the pump sets and the load, everything feels heavy, the pump is brought on sooner so the sets are ending sooner due to accumulation of lactic acid which in turn results in total volume via load being significantly less.. Also my intensity feels a bit mehh...
I think to myself that I've worked a damn sight harder before, don't get my wrong.. I am focused throughout the set however I am thinking that the reason I am dilly dallying about is due to the influx of new gym goers so the equipment always seems to be hijacked or in use.

That is a little or a LOT of information regarding my situation so my question is

How do you think I should progress?

I'm not 100% sure but I believe that this (lift regression) has been brought on by the sudden increase of NEAT expenditure and me being on my feet a lot more but then I am thinking how I managed to get through the whole of my last prep relatively unscathed apart from it being a living hell at the time.
The sessions were still really productive.

Do you think I should get out of this mini-cut phase and return into my surplus gaining phase? I think my body is trying to tell me in a way that what I am doing right now is not favorable.

Do you think it's wise to take a few additional days rest?

My rest days I have 30-40g carbs from trace sources.. and on training days I have pro fat up until my pre workout meal where I then consume around 300g carbs peri.

I am wondering if I should take a few days off and eat up with some carbs etc.

Thanks

I'll simply here as I think the issue boils down a lack of motivation.

The solution then is to find something that motivates you.

So, there are a couple things to consider:

Are the "Newbies" in the gym the issue (this can be legit) or an excuse?...

What is your long term goal here as far as gaining muscle?... Are you sabotaging yourself by letting this (small?) amount of fat gain keep you from gaining the muscle you ultimately want?...

You may be having some cognitive dissonance here in that you want to body cut body fat, and thus sacrifice muscle gain, but also gain more muscle (as you have some goal in mind that you've maybe not made concrete).

I'd set out your yearly long term goal and consider where this cut fits in?... You can even do the dreaded 5year goal, too - how much muscle do you want?...

Maybe, assuming you're in the N. hemisphere, doing another gaining-oriented blast woudl be best and then cutting down during the warmer months would make more sense in terms
-Long term goal
-Time of year: Clothing you'd be wearing and effect of appetite on heat
-New Year's resolutions would be out of the gym.

-S

[Stewilliams]

I'll simply here as I think the issue boils down a lack of motivation.

The solution then is to find something that motivates you.

So, there are a couple things to consider:

Are the "Newbies" in the gym the issue (this can be legit) or an excuse?...

What is your long term goal here as far as gaining muscle?... Are you sabotaging yourself by letting this (small?) amount of fat gain keep you from gaining the muscle you ultimately want?...

You may be having some cognitive dissonance here in that you want to body cut body fat, and thus sacrifice muscle gain, but also gain more muscle (as you have some goal in mind that you've maybe not made concrete).

I'd set out your yearly long term goal and consider where this cut fits in?... You can even do the dreaded 5year goal, too - how much muscle do you want?...

Maybe, assuming you're in the N. hemisphere, doing another gaining-oriented blast woudl be best and then cutting down during the warmer months would make more sense in terms
-Long term goal
-Time of year: Clothing you'd be wearing and effect of appetite on heat
-New Year's resolutions would be out of the gym.

-S

Absolutely love this answer! Pretty much had this situation myself and it came down to a lack of motivation and I asked myself the questions that Scott listed (as well as a few others), and it got me back on the right track !

[nordan]

I'll simply here as I think the issue boils down a lack of motivation.

The solution then is to find something that motivates you.

So, there are a couple things to consider:

Are the "Newbies" in the gym the issue (this can be legit) or an excuse?...

What is your long term goal here as far as gaining muscle?... Are you sabotaging yourself by letting this (small?) amount of fat gain keep you from gaining the muscle you ultimately want?...

You may be having some cognitive dissonance here in that you want to body cut body fat, and thus sacrifice muscle gain, but also gain more muscle (as you have some goal in mind that you've maybe not made concrete).

I'd set out your yearly long term goal and consider where this cut fits in?... You can even do the dreaded 5year goal, too - how much muscle do you want?...

Maybe, assuming you're in the N. hemisphere, doing another gaining-oriented blast woudl be best and then cutting down during the warmer months would make more sense in terms
-Long term goal
-Time of year: Clothing you'd be wearing and effect of appetite on heat
-New Year's resolutions would be out of the gym.

-S

Absolutely love this answer! Pretty much had this situation myself and it came down to a lack of motivation and I asked myself the questions that Scott listed (as well as a few others), and it got me back on the right track !

The thing is chaps, I am motivated when I am not there.. I love training and think about it a lot. I am very merticulous with things leading up to and after training but the issue is as I am warming up I am just not interested.

The purpose of the mini cut was so that my gaining phase could be prolonged as long as possible. I don't want to have to do a typical cut to get in that optimal shape to build muscle so the idea was to do small mini cuts in order to get to that optimal muscle building phase asap which in turn allows me to build the greatest amount of muscle. I couldn't think of anything worse spending 16+ weeks again dieting down and not being in a surplus just to get into that optimal state.

Last year I did that long cut which I mentioned and it was mentally and physically tough. I took me 3-4 months to start feeling reasonable again as I was so burnt out. 3-4 months of feeling lethargic, no energy, no drive, 3-4 months of shit sessions. I am currently feeling the same lethargy as I did in that "overtraining period" and I am only 1 1/2 weeks into this mini cut and 2 weeks into my new blast.

As JP mentions.. the idea of a mini cut is for it to be no more than 6 weeks which should ensure that strength shouldn't take a hit etc however this is having an effect on my strength ALREADY and I am only 1 & 1/2 weeks in.

This is really unusual for me as the only form of cardio is coming from NEAT which is 10k steps. I could understand if I was doing 1 hour on the stair-master or something more taxing but its just walking..Like I mentioned before, I did 2 hours cardio and 18k steps on top of 2 hours tier 2 turbo whilst on a third less calories than now and my strength was increasing session by session.

This is making me question somethings up..

Is it a case that I need a few days off ? Need another cruise? I am really confused.

[Scott Stevenson]

The thing is chaps, I am motivated when I am not there.. I love training and think about it a lot. I am very merticulous with things leading up to and after training but the issue is as I am warming up I am just not interested.

The purpose of the mini cut was so that my gaining phase could be prolonged as long as possible. I don't want to have to do a typical cut to get in that optimal shape to build muscle so the idea was to do small mini cuts in order to get to that optimal muscle building phase asap which in turn allows me to build the greatest amount of muscle. I couldn't think of anything worse spending 16+ weeks again dieting down and not being in a surplus just to get into that optimal state.

Last year I did that long cut which I mentioned and it was mentally and physically tough. I took me 3-4 months to start feeling reasonable again as I was so burnt out. 3-4 months of feeling lethargic, no energy, no drive, 3-4 months of shit sessions. I am currently feeling the same lethargy as I did in that "overtraining period" and I am only 1 1/2 weeks into this mini cut and 2 weeks into my new blast.

As JP mentions.. the idea of a mini cut is for it to be no more than 6 weeks which should ensure that strength shouldn't take a hit etc however this is having an effect on my strength ALREADY and I am only 1 & 1/2 weeks in.

This is really unusual for me as the only form of cardio is coming from NEAT which is 10k steps. I could understand if I was doing 1 hour on the stair-master or something more taxing but its just walking..Like I mentioned before, I did 2 hours cardio and 18k steps on top of 2 hours tier 2 turbo whilst on a third less calories than now and my strength was increasing session by session.

This is making me question somethings up..

Is it a case that I need a few days off ? Need another cruise? I am really confused.

I think the bolded tells the story here.

You've got an interest in bodybuilding obviously, and would love to be in a place where you feel great and are kicking ass in the gym, but it sounds like you're simply not there physiologically.

I'm guessing here, but when you then go to the gym and it's time to amp up for training, this lethargy then sets in and, b/c of that, your training motivation goes down.

There is actually some evidence in humans that with overtraining via resistance exercise, there is a decrease in adrenoreceptor density, which would decrease the signal that comes form the sympathetic nervous system.

1. Fry AC, Schilling BK, Weiss LW, Chiu LZ. beta2-Adrenergic receptor downregulation and performance decrements during high-intensity resistance exercise overtraining. Journal of applied physiology. 2006;101(6):1664-1672.

This was in skeletal muscle, not nervous tissue like the brain, but it fits with what you're experiencing.

---------

So, I would say that you might need to drop it back and do another cruise / taper and wait until you're REALLY ready to comeback and kick ass, and then wait even another few days.

I mentioned this on the latest muscle minds (will be out next week) that I talked with a buddy who's a PL'er about his taper the other day. He takes essentially 2 weeks off from the gym and by the time the meet hits, he's so friggin' out of his mind that he just wants to tear into things.

This was the thing that Dante very much emphasized with DC training- that the DC cruise should leave you just chomping at the bitt when you come back. It sounds like your cruise didn't do the job, maybe b/c you pushed too far in that previous blast. Also, simply that you have the recent history of what seems like it really was a case of overtraining (given how long it took for you to bounce back) that you might have this tendency (supporting my guess here about what's going on).

This does not preclude that there's also something unusual going on here organically (such as whatever things are underlying the phenomenon of chronic fatigue) and that you can't benefit from doing everything in your power to enhance recovery outside of adjusting training.

If you posted some pics, it might help with getting an idea of where you body fat really is. If you're actually pretty lean, then, if you were to take another cruise / deload and reducing kcal during the point wouldn't be my suggestion. (On the contrary, if your BF is relatively high, then you could have some down time and probably also drop a small amount of body fat, which is easier the more body fat you have.)

-S

[nordan]

I think the bolded tells the story here.

You've got an interest in bodybuilding obviously, and would love to be in a place where you feel great and are kicking ass in the gym, but it sounds like you're simply not there physiologically.

I'm guessing here, but when you then go to the gym and it's time to amp up for training, this lethargy then sets in and, b/c of that, your training motivation goes down.

There is actually some evidence in humans that with overtraining via resistance exercise, there is a decrease in adrenoreceptor density, which would decrease the signal that comes form the sympathetic nervous system.

1. Fry AC, Schilling BK, Weiss LW, Chiu LZ. beta2-Adrenergic receptor downregulation and performance decrements during high-intensity resistance exercise overtraining. Journal of applied physiology. 2006;101(6):1664-1672.

This was in skeletal muscle, not nervous tissue like the brain, but it fits with what you're experiencing.

---------

So, I would say that you might need to drop it back and do another cruise / taper and wait until you're REALLY ready to comeback and kick ass, and then wait even another few days.

I mentioned this on the latest muscle minds (will be out next week) that I talked with a buddy who's a PL'er about his taper the other day. He takes essentially 2 weeks off from the gym and by the time the meet hits, he's so friggin' out of his mind that he just wants to tear into things.

This was the thing that Dante very much emphasized with DC training- that the DC cruise should leave you just chomping at the bitt when you come back. It sounds like your cruise didn't do the job, maybe b/c you pushed too far in that previous blast. Also, simply that you have the recent history of what seems like it really was a case of overtraining (given how long it took for you to bounce back) that you might have this tendency (supporting my guess here about what's going on).

This does not preclude that there's also something unusual going on here organically (such as whatever things are underlying the phenomenon of chronic fatigue) and that you can't benefit from doing everything in your power to enhance recovery outside of adjusting training.

If you posted some pics, it might help with getting an idea of where you body fat really is. If you're actually pretty lean, then, if you were to take another cruise / deload and reducing kcal during the point wouldn't be my suggestion. (On the contrary, if your BF is relatively high, then you could have some down time and probably also drop a small amount of body fat, which is easier the more body fat you have.)

-S

Understood Scott, thanks for your input as always

I have so far taken 2 days off and feeling a little fresher in the sense that I would love to get back in there.. however I believe it may be still a little too soon. I kind of want to be in the situation that you described as Dante would put it. I very much believe a cruise needs to be done so in that case how would you structure this, as its not a typical 6 week blast type cruise.

I've been on tier 1 first week and only completed days 1,2 & 3 of tier 2 on the second. Would you suggest just a 2 week blast cruise (1/3 of 2 weeks equates to 5 days) ? Again if this was the case how would you structure it, having already had 2 days off completely? Would you just have a solid 5 days off as you would with the latter part of a cruise or would you try go in an train one of those days? Again I feel like I want to get in the gym as it looks like I am fading away but feel like I might make things potentially worse and that I might benefit from an additional days rest.

Problem I got here is its Shrove Tuesday over here and I would love some of those sweet juicy carbs in the form of pancakes so feel like I need to create some sort of demand as carbs are limited on rest days.

Ill post pics up tomorrow and hopefully then you can assess where I am at in terms of continuing with this mini cut.. it might help having someone elses perspective (yours) on this.

Thanks

[Scott Stevenson]

Understood Scott, thanks for your input as always

I have so far taken 2 days off and feeling a little fresher in the sense that I would love to get back in there.. however I believe it may be still a little too soon. I kind of want to be in the situation that you described as Dante would put it. I very much believe a cruise needs to be done so in that case how would you structure this, as its not a typical 6 week blast type cruise.

I've been on tier 1 first week and only completed days 1,2 & 3 of tier 2 on the second. Would you suggest just a 2 week blast cruise (1/3 of 2 weeks equates to 5 days) ? Again if this was the case how would you structure it, having already had 2 days off completely? Would you just have a solid 5 days off as you would with the latter part of a cruise or would you try go in an train one of those days? Again I feel like I want to get in the gym as it looks like I am fading away but feel like I might make things potentially worse and that I might benefit from an additional days rest.

Problem I got here is its Shrove Tuesday over here and I would love some of those sweet juicy carbs in the form of pancakes so feel like I need to create some sort of demand as carbs are limited on rest days.

Ill post pics up tomorrow and hopefully then you can assess where I am at in terms of continuing with this mini cut.. it might help having someone elses perspective (yours) on this.

Thanks

Nordan,

Are you having trouble sleeping at night?

Is there residual DOMS... or if you were to stretch out, would you (you can try this out) feel achy?...

How does this feel in comparison to how you felt when you needed to take several months of downtime, in terms of recovery?...

If you could place how you feel NOW along the time line to recovery during that period, that will tell you about how much time you'll need to take off...

Where do you fit on this Perceived Recovery Scale?...

   

-S

[nordan]

Nordan,

Are you having trouble sleeping at night?

Is there residual DOMS... or if you were to stretch out, would you (you can try this out) feel achy?...

How does this feel in comparison to how you felt when you needed to take several months of downtime, in terms of recovery?...

If you could place how you feel NOW along the time line to recovery during that period, that will tell you about how much time you'll need to take off...

Where do you fit on this Perceived Recovery Scale?...



-S

Not really if i'm honest, I do sleep a lot though.. I could sleep 11 1/2 hours a night providing there wasn't any commitments nor any real reason to get up for apart from the fact that I've wasted a lot of time in bed lol. In terms of DOMS, I never really get any tbh.. the only time I get DOMS is if I haven't performed an exercise for an extended period of time e.g. 3 + months.

In terms of that scale I would probably sit myself at around the 6-7 mark.. like i say I am not achey or anything, I am sort of in that cba / need a kick up the arse mood. It just kind of seems like effort to go at the very moment in time however If I was there then it could be a different story.

I noticed when doing my last cruise that I enjoyed doing the tier 1 basic which got me in and out the gym in an hour, it kind of felt more enjoyable so to speak.
I was contemplating throughout that cruise that I should maybe give it a full blast at tier 1 as for some reason it felt fun.. (not that tier 2 didnt) but it kind of felt like I wasn't spending hours in there, but then I was worried that there was too little volume to grow which is why I bumped up to tier 2.

[Scott Stevenson]

Not really if i'm honest, I do sleep a lot though.. I could sleep 11 1/2 hours a night providing there wasn't any commitments nor any real reason to get up for apart from the fact that I've wasted a lot of time in bed lol. In terms of DOMS, I never really get any tbh.. the only time I get DOMS is if I haven't performed an exercise for an extended period of time e.g. 3 + months.

In terms of that scale I would probably sit myself at around the 6-7 mark.. like i say I am not achey or anything, I am sort of in that cba / need a kick up the arse mood. It just kind of seems like effort to go at the very moment in time however If I was there then it could be a different story.

I noticed when doing my last cruise that I enjoyed doing the tier 1 basic which got me in and out the gym in an hour, it kind of felt more enjoyable so to speak.
I was contemplating throughout that cruise that I should maybe give it a full blast at tier 1 as for some reason it felt fun.. (not that tier 2 didnt) but it kind of felt like I wasn't spending hours in there, but then I was worried that there was too little volume to grow which is why I bumped up to tier 2.

Many folks grow will with Tier I and as long as you're progressing and nutrition is appropriate, then it can definitely be effective, ESPECIALLY if you're more motivated to train hard and eek out progress.

A few thoughts for you:

I'd do a personal inventory here and figure out:

Your goal - Long and short term, making them operationalized and measurable. Do you want to compete, and if so, when, what division, what show, etc. Do you want to weigh XXXlb at X%BF and if so, when and how will you get there (gain then drop fat?), when is the deadline and how will you measure body fat?...

A goal can also be to enjoy each and every workout, as well - to find a way to make it fun. (You can even rate your sessions in your log book to be sure you're on track.

Review the above at the start of your workout as you ask yourself, "Why am I here?"


Find a training partner who will kick your ass and make it fun to train. (This may not work for everyone, but a good training partner is great. This could be a guy who is stronger than you, or maybe a woman who trains like a banshee and makes you want to push harder. )



-S

[nordan]

Many folks grow will with Tier I and as long as you're progressing and nutrition is appropriate, then it can definitely be effective, ESPECIALLY if you're more motivated to train hard and eek out progress.

A few thoughts for you:

I'd do a personal inventory here and figure out:

Your goal - Long and short term, making them operationalized and measurable. Do you want to compete, and if so, when, what division, what show, etc. Do you want to weigh XXXlb at X%BF and if so, when and how will you get there (gain then drop fat?), when is the deadline and how will you measure body fat?...

A goal can also be to enjoy each and every workout, as well - to find a way to make it fun. (You can even rate your sessions in your log book to be sure you're on track.

Review the above at the start of your workout as you ask yourself, "Why am I here?"


Find a training partner who will kick your ass and make it fun to train. (This may not work for everyone, but a good training partner is great. This could be a guy who is stronger than you, or maybe a woman who trains like a banshee and makes you want to push harder. )



-S

Totally get where your coming from S.

Normally or should I say when I am not experiencing this over training fatigue then I absolutely go balls to the wall in and throughout every set.. I mean even when I AM experiencing it I do the same as in train really intense but just feel like written off instead of energized.

To update you, I trained yesterday doing a hybrid Tier 1 cruise workout which consisted of doing a single MR and pump set for Chest & Arms and a single MR for the rest of my upper body (shoulders, back, abs). It was good and everything felt blown up. I actually got some minor DOMS in my arms for the first time in never.. and felt energized throughout so maybe the additional few days rest has alleviated some of this fatigue.

I know that body weight needs to increase substantially to gain any substantial size but do you think with me having trouble growing these arms that experiencing some kind of DOMS is a beneficial sign, or a negative sign?
As in do you think that this is feedback telling me that I have done too much volume in a single session or ?

Correct me if I am wrong but the feeling of DOMS indicates to me that I have actually worked the muscle, worked it enough to stimulate it as such but not annihilate it as I literally did an MR & a pump set not 15 sets of 10 reps for 4 different exercises like I see some kids do (over exaggeration maybe).

It is very subtle and not your typical soreness which leaves you absolutely crippled.

The idea of having a training partner is obviously a good one but unfortunately I've had two training partners and neither of them have been able to stick it out.. some of the sets have left them for dead.
Heavy MR's, 5's into the hole on leg press, high rep sets for pump etc have taken them way out of there comfort zone and to a place of no return lol .