FT Questions....

[Scott Stevenson]

Thanks for the quick reply!

All points taken on board and all make complete sense; I'm sure youve considered 1000's of variants in the prouction of what is now FT

Probably just my ego itching for hitting big numbers sooner on the more "traditional" lifts with the tweak I outlined in my previous post

There's an advantage here in having done what hundreds (here on the board at least) have done, too, such the you can compare notes.

As a side note, what do you think creates the largest caloric expenditure out of the different sessions?

That could depend upon the exercise selection and how you do Pump sets, TBH.

Using mainly free weights for loading sets and push the pump sets like none other and those days can be very demanding. OTOH, MR's could be done very much with isolation types of movements and reduce the expenditure.

Try it out and let us know what you find.

-S

[Scott Stevenson]

WOW! I just finished reading through this entire thread trying to take it all in. By the end I felt like I was able to answer 95% of the questions asked on my own. I have to say that reading this thread all the way through has given me a much better understanding of the program and helped me with how I will address many of the scenarios I will likely run into.

Scott, I know that you do not typically recommend Dead Lifts due to the extreme taxation it puts on the CNS. However for specificity sake I still want and need some dead lifting in my program. I am not sure if you remember my introduction thread last week. I posted it just before I got deep into this thread but I plan to do a PL meet in the Spring. However I am only going to do PL type loads and intensity the last 4-5 weeks before the meet to bring my CNS up a bit, but have no intention of doing a major peaking process. I will be doing this with my 13 year old daughter who wants to compete in her first PL Meet then. So I am just doing it for the experience of doing it with her and not trying to beat numbers from my previous meet other than deadlifts that is.

Basically I will be bulking trying to get ready for a Classic BB show late next year. This meets "prep" will just be a quick interruption of the Hypertrophy specific training, and is for personal life experience reasons more than being for bodybuilding purposes. I still feel that it won't hinder my progress to spend one Blast focusing on lower repetitions for the loading sets just to get the CNS more efficient at heavier loads before the meet. It may even allow increased volume afterwards simply due to the increase in strength from a more strength focused blast.

Anyway enough about that. Since one of the reasons you do not include DL's in the program is that they are CNS intensive then if one were going to put them in anyway for specificity would it be better to go to say an RPE9 for dead lifts on load days instead of to failure?

If so on later Volume Tiers where there are more sets would this be a scenario where you might:
Option 1) actually do deadlifts for the first set to an RPE9 then perhaps do Back Width movement, and then follow up with a failure on a supported row to save lower back for squatting movements
Pros = Still get to do failure set for back thickness, increased volume from additional warm ups.
Cons = takes longer in the gym due to setting up and warming up for an extra exercise.... inconvenient as far as holding or setting up 3 stations.


Option 2) Simply do a second set @ RPE9 on deads"
Pros = More Specificity in training since DL's will be important for the meet, much easier to only have 2 work stations to alternate between in a busy gym, less time intensive due to less warm up sets than if using a 3rd exercise.
Cons = No failure set gets done for back thickness, not sure that 2 sets of DL at an RPE9 is not still going to be more taxing on the CNS than just doing one set than failing on a supported row...

Do you think those adjustments might be wise, and if so which out of the two options, which seems more prudent or effective as an adjustment for the inclusion of deadlifting.

I have already taken into account the amount of use of the lower back in surrounding workouts and planned the DL to be in the blast with hack squats for thigh movement to try and keep the lower back fresh. Although contemplating perhaps using the Leg Press there, I feel either option is suitable there.

Kudos on reading this entire thread!!! Glad you got a lot out of it.

I'm sorry you typed out this long post, though, b/c it's not true that I outright don't recommend deadlifts.

They are not an exercise I'd suggest someone use of Muscle Rounds (talking Barbell deads, whereas SLDL's can be used for hammies and are a great one if the low back is fresh and the hams previously fatigued from a compound exercise like a leg press, for instance).

The reason for not doing full BB deads with MR's is not b/c of how CNS intensive they are per se, but that with the low back stress, they can be asking for an injury when going to failure in a fatigued and winded (cardiovascularly stressed) state. It's just kind of an accident waiting to happen.

Full Deads are a GREAT back builder for a lot of guys. For me, they end up being much more of an overall stress (legs, low back, etc.) such that they don't fit as well into a FT regime as simply doing rack deads (which I do regularly).

For LOADING sets, full deads are thus great.

There have been several PL'ers who have used the big 3 for their loading set exercises, rotating among variations by using bands, chains, etc. and also doing deficit deads and partial (rack) deads, too.

So, there's no real reason to modify much as far as the deads go (or use an RPE scale vs. simply stopping 1-2 reps before failure). Depending on Tier, of course, I'd just go with making sure for back that you include 2 sets of deads (making back thickness a priority).

There are of course some other modifications you could do and break away from the system, but the simplest answer to your question is to tell you that doing deads is OK without any special modifications to the program.

-S

[Kleen]

Thanks for that Scott, I guess for some reason I saw the recommendations not to do them on MR and though that it was also for load. With reading through the whole thread there was so much info that it is not surprising some of it my have been crossed during the massive info influx.

As far as typing it out that's okay. Sometimes, I will answer my own questions, or something occurs to me while trying to put the question together. So no problem there. I will probably do a little brain picking along the way for ways to focus this a bit more on strength but for the first few blasts I plan to follow along the way that the methods are laid out.

I think I know the answer to this already but wanted to ask. What are your thoughts on using a Snatch Grip High Pull from the hang in an MR. I am not sure if they would be considered a good option there due to possibly being too lower back intensive, and not sure if the the fact the negatives aren't really able to be emphasized may not make them the best choice for MR sets. I just found that nothing seems to make my YOKE respond like including Snatch Grip High pulls in a program. My shoulders, and upper back just respond extremely well to them. Just not sure if they are conducive to MR style lifts or if I should perhaps stick with Wide Grip Upright Rows which seem to agree with my forearms less after a bit.

[Scott Stevenson]

Thanks for that Scott, I guess for some reason I saw the recommendations not to do them on MR and though that it was also for load. With reading through the whole thread there was so much info that it is not surprising some of it my have been crossed during the massive info influx.

As far as typing it out that's okay. Sometimes, I will answer my own questions, or something occurs to me while trying to put the question together. So no problem there. I will probably do a little brain picking along the way for ways to focus this a bit more on strength but for the first few blasts I plan to follow along the way that the methods are laid out.

I think I know the answer to this already but wanted to ask. What are your thoughts on using a Snatch Grip High Pull from the hang in an MR. I am not sure if they would be considered a good option there due to possibly being too lower back intensive, and not sure if the the fact the negatives aren't really able to be emphasized may not make them the best choice for MR sets. I just found that nothing seems to make my YOKE respond like including Snatch Grip High pulls in a program. My shoulders, and upper back just respond extremely well to them. Just not sure if they are conducive to MR style lifts or if I should perhaps stick with Wide Grip Upright Rows which seem to agree with my forearms less after a bit.

I'd not be a fan of intentionally performing a power training moving (high pulls are about power development) when intentionally in a fatigued situation that come from doing a MR. There is injury risk here and of course a lack of eccentric loading, too, as you mention.

Plyometrics, power cleans, snatch variations, high pulls, etc. are movements that are focused on training the CNS, not the muscular system. You're not going to optimizing that training effect either when or rather if (as I'm not suggesting you do this) you practice those movements in a fatigued state. This would be like trying to get better at sprinting by doing sprints right after running a mile or trying to get better at throwing a fast ball by practicing right after doing a weight training circuit for the arms.

Velocitiy specificity of training dictates adaptations here: Studies have been done with, for instance, weighted bats (with the notion of creating a tensile overload) that actually find that loading up the baseball bat slows swing speed and alters mechanics which then results in slower bat speed when swinging a normal bat.

-S

[thethinker48]

Sorry I missed this Question.

So, just don't do a high a rep Pump set - there is a rep range there for a reason.

IT sounds like you're hitting your biceps a bit during your back training, so there could be an issue there.

Also, you seem to be saying that what you're seeing over the course of a week will translate into the distant future.

Do you think, even if your biceps look "flat" for a few days that if you have increased the loads you are using (on Pump sets or otherwise) for biceps movements over the course of a couple years by 50% that you'll not have larger biceps?...

-S

Dammnit Scott that last paragraph makes so much sense.

I think muscle fullness to me was always a sign of optimal recovery. Consuming 350-450 grams of carbs in the pre, and post workout period should ensure proper glycogen replenishment but not to a muscle group that's been annihilated like that.

I've tried the heavy approach on bis, doing a plate curls, 60-65 lb curls etc but they never grew that well using that approach. They grew a bit from back loads getting heavier and making sure I don't over train them by bombarding them with 25-30 rep torture sets.

Maybe I should slowly add intensity: ie. Do 1 MR for them a week on an exercise I like and progress slowly on that; preferably on a day that's a bit away from heavy back loading days.

If I succeed in making them grow it's a win. If I fail at making them grow, it's a win (that oh so sweet intel) [emoji3]

Gotta remember to drive that bodyweight up too...[emoji31] This is a psychological disorder I tell you


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[Scott Stevenson]

Dammnit Scott that last paragraph makes so much sense.

I try!

I think muscle fullness to me was always a sign of optimal recovery. Consuming 350-450 grams of carbs in the pre, and post workout period should ensure proper glycogen replenishment but not to a muscle group that's been annihilated like that.

There is true to both of these sentences, but the long haul is where the gains come.

I've tried the heavy approach on bis, doing a plate curls, 60-65 lb curls etc but they never grew that well using that approach. They grew a bit from back loads getting heavier and making sure I don't over train them by bombarding them with 25-30 rep torture sets.

Maybe I should slowly add intensity: ie. Do 1 MR for them a week on an exercise I like and progress slowly on that; preferably on a day that's a bit away from heavy back loading days.

If I succeed in making them grow it's a win. If I fail at making them grow, it's a win (that oh so sweet intel) [emoji3]

'

I think as long as you can recovery, then you can progress, but YOUR final paragraph below is the kicker, IMO:

Gotta remember to drive that bodyweight up too...[emoji31] This is a psychological disorder I tell you

Have you seen this?...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKBFWy3e...m-comments

-S

[Kleen]

I'd not be a fan of intentionally performing a power training moving (high pulls are about power development) when intentionally in a fatigued situation that come from doing a MR. There is injury risk here and of course a lack of eccentric loading, too, as you mention.

Plyometrics, power cleans, snatch variations, high pulls, etc. are movements that are focused on training the CNS, not the muscular system. You're not going to optimizing that training effect either when or rather if (as I'm not suggesting you do this) you practice those movements in a fatigued state. This would be like trying to get better at sprinting by doing sprints right after running a mile or trying to get better at throwing a fast ball by practicing right after doing a weight training circuit for the arms.

Velocitiy specificity of training dictates adaptations here: Studies have been done with, for instance, weighted bats (with the notion of creating a tensile overload) that actually find that loading up the baseball bat slows swing speed and alters mechanics which then results in slower bat speed when swinging a normal bat.

-S

Awesome, this is what I had kind of come to grips with and was just a "hope" that it may fit since I have really good response to them.

What you are saying regarding the purpose of the movement makes complete sense, and I wasn't really thinking of doing them for speed so much as a builder due to my response to them.

I think I read in here that others found that they were able to do Upright Rows for MR even though doing them for a straight set often caused problems. I think I will give them a shot to see if they cause me any issues in the MR. If not that would be great because I used to respond really well to them before my shoulders and elbows started acting up.

That movement pattern just really lights up my delts and traps better than a lot of exercises.

[Scott Stevenson]

Awesome, this is what I had kind of come to grips with and was just a "hope" that it may fit since I have really good response to them.

What you are saying regarding the purpose of the movement makes complete sense, and I wasn't really thinking of doing them for speed so much as a builder due to my response to them.

I think I read in here that others found that they were able to do Upright Rows for MR even though doing them for a straight set often caused problems. I think I will give them a shot to see if they cause me any issues in the MR. If not that would be great because I used to respond really well to them before my shoulders and elbows started acting up.

That movement pattern just really lights up my delts and traps better than a lot of exercises.

I don't want to discourage you from finding ways to elicit muscle growth, but doing snatch grip high pulls using the FT set types is not something I'd recommend.

Now, if you wanted to incorporate those in a way that produces growth for you (e.g., by not coming near muscular failure), I'm for figuring out what works best for you.

If the round peg of that lift as you've been doing them means growth, I'd not try to fit it into the square hole of the FT set types, per se, but you may be able to use it (e.g., on days you'd do Loading sets otherwise) to your advantage. I'm not sure how you do those (some folks might only do no more than triples or perhaps sets of 5), so I'll leave it to you if you want to work up your own solution.

-S

[dougphillips]

I was wondering everyone's thoughts about the following scenario:
I'm a natural BB competitor and currently under Tier II for VV, so pretty decent amount of volume. My recovery is pretty good, I may add some extra carbs to periworkout to combat any growing soreness (cardio is currently 2 days/week LISS 30 min). My question is: I'll be doing a 16 week prep starting December, most likely HIIT and LISS almost every day. Should I scale back on volume when starting a prep under FT? I did not do FT last prep but high volume and towards the end I really felt drained. I'd appreciate any feedback, thanks!

[thethinker48]

I try!


There is true to both of these sentences, but the long haul is where the gains come.

'

I think as long as you can recovery, then you can progress, but YOUR final paragraph below is the kicker, IMO:


Have you seen this?...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKBFWy3e...m-comments

-S

Those video series are a godsend. I know what I'm listening to commuting tomorrow.

I'm going to employ the 1 MR a week (or 8 days for me since it's EOD training) furthest away from my heavy load day.

I know with your dogs situation (hope the fella is doing well), getting optimal sleep has been hard for you. Do you recover well on just 6-7 hours of sleep? I need 8 or a no go in the gym personally.

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