Let's talk volume

[_jais_]

I'm currently coming off of a 12 week blast of Mountain Dog training. Great programs and I've had success but I've always felt that frequency was more ideal for a natural trainee, in fact full body routines have always been my favorite. Today I started the tier 1 basic program. I was more just trying to get my template down this week and planned on moving to tier 3 for my "official" start. After today's workout I plan on sticking to tier 1 for awhile. I've trained high volume for Awhile now so on paper tier 1 looked extremely low volume to me. The one thing I didn't take into account was the training to absolute failure and how taxing it really is. By the time you work up to your max "working" set to failure I've done 5 or 6 sets of "warmups". In regular volume training, or in my last blast Mountain Dog training, those "warmup" sets I count for total volume. For instance on squats for a typical volume day I might go
Barx10
135x10
185x10
225x10
275x10
295x8 not total failure
Most people would consider that "high volume" when paired with say leg press, same working up style, leg ext 3x10, leg curls 4x10 or whatever. I would do this leg routine one time per week.

Today's leg workout for example which would be considered "low volume"
Leg press:
1-45 per side x 12
2-45 per side x 12
3-45 per side x 12
4-45 per side x 12
5-45 per side x 13 total failure. In between sets of the leg presses I was doing the same type of work up sets with leg ext and leg curls working up to 1 max set of each using the 2:00 min rest protocols. SO on paper were calling this 1 "working set" of leg press, leg extensions and leg curls, but those who have lifting awhile know those "warmup" sets do account for total volume.

I think this is where the "volume" guys and the "HIT" guys, say training DC or fortitude are doing roughly the same volume but calling it different things. In the squat example above the "volume" guy might call that 5 sets whereas the "HIT" guy might call that 1 set.

Something I've thought about for awhile and would like opinions on it.

[Scott Stevenson]

My first question is why so many warm-up sets for the leg press example? Do you feel you need to do that many?

-S

[_jais_]

My first question is why so many warm-up sets for the leg press example? Do you feel you need to do that many?

-S

Without getting into to much detail I'm coming off of a pretty serious injury so I generally warm up that much on all compound type exercises. Do you not recommend that much warm up for your fortitude training loading sets generally?

On a side note I used to warm up similarly for my one main set when I trained DC. Same question as above, in general do you feel that is too much warm up?

I look forward to your reply.

Thanks

[Scott Stevenson]

Without getting into to much detail I'm coming off of a pretty serious injury so I generally warm up that much on all compound type exercises. Do you not recommend that much warm up for your fortitude training loading sets generally?

On a side note I used to warm up similarly for my one main set when I trained DC. Same question as above, in general do you feel that is too much warm up?

I look forward to your reply.

Thanks

I always suggest folks warm-up for the purposes of warming up, which can mean any of a number of things in terms of cardio, stretching, warm-up sets

I think it *might* be fatigue-inducing to do that much warm-up, i.e., if you do less work during your warm-up, you could use more weight and/or get more reps during your work set. This comes from doing DC for about a decade and helping a lot of guys do it as well.

If your purpose is to focus as much stimulus into that last final work set, then you could be defeating the purpose in doing so many sets with reps that high beforehand.

(When you say "all compound exercises" do you mean compound exercises for all muscle groups? That sounds like one hell of an injury!!! )

-Scott

[_jais_]

I always suggest folks warm-up for the purposes of warming up, which can mean any of a number of things in terms of cardio, stretching, warm-up sets

I think it *might* be fatigue-inducing to do that much warm-up, i.e., if you do less work during your warm-up, you could use more weight and/or get more reps during your work set. This comes from doing DC for about a decade and helping a lot of guys do it as well.

If your purpose is to focus as much stimulus into that last final work set, then you could be defeating the purpose in doing so many sets with reps that high beforehand.

(When you say "all compound exercises" do you mean compound exercises for all muscle groups? That sounds like one hell of an injury!!! )

-Scott

Ah makes sense. Ya it's a back injury so I'm generally very careful and warm up very thoroughly and completely. I also use the elliptical prior to touching a weight to get a good sweat going. I see what you mean though and I can definitely see your point when it comes to DC training about being too fatigue inducing to do that many warmup sets, but what about fortitude training, which I just recently started, would you in general recommend more of a DC style warm up on loading days focusing getting up as much weight as possible for the loading sets?

Or because some of the tiers have multiple loading sets is it as crucial to build up to that "one" max set?

Thank you for your responses.

[Scott Stevenson]

Ah makes sense. Ya it's a back injury so I'm generally very careful and warm up very thoroughly and completely. I also use the elliptical prior to touching a weight to get a good sweat going. I see what you mean though and I can definitely see your point when it comes to DC training about being too fatigue inducing to do that many warmup sets, but what about fortitude training, which I just recently started, would you in general recommend more of a DC style warm up on loading days focusing getting up as much weight as possible for the loading sets?

Or because some of the tiers have multiple loading sets is it as crucial to build up to that "one" max set?

Thank you for your responses.

You're welcome!

I still recommend people do as much as they feel they need to be safely warmed up. I'd rather see someone do more warm-up sets and maybe get a rep or two less than not do enough and get injured.

One advance of the Higher Volume Tiers is that the multiple sets are indeed kind of a warm-up before the final set where one would go the failure (safely, of course). It's really a matter of what you feel you need to do.

I remember when I was training with Dave H. that, for instance on pressing movements, let's say on a HS press, we might do this:

Me:
Warm-up with 1 plate / side, 2 plates / side, 3, plates / side, 4 plates/ side then final go set. Reps might be: 10, 6, 4, 3, max effort RP set

Dave:
Warms up with 2 plates / side for 25 reps. Then he goes to his go weight after just one set. (I remember him doing exactly that once after we started back after a long time not training together. He had just been warming up that way when training alone. Before then, he'd simply do the reps with the lighter weights b/c that's what I did...)

So, it's really up to you. If you're injured, you can't lift. If you're making progress in the gym (even it that the reps are a little below your absolute best b/c of a fatiguing warm-up protocol), then you're going to grow.



-S

[_jais_]

You're welcome!

I still recommend people do as much as they feel they need to be safely warmed up. I'd rather see someone do more warm-up sets and maybe get a rep or two less than not do enough and get injured.

One advance of the Higher Volume Tiers is that the multiple sets are indeed kind of a warm-up before the final set where one would go the failure (safely, of course). It's really a matter of what you feel you need to do.

I remember when I was training with Dave H. that, for instance on pressing movements, let's say on a HS press, we might do this:

Me:
Warm-up with 1 plate / side, 2 plates / side, 3, plates / side, 4 plates/ side then final go set. Reps might be: 10, 6, 4, 3, max effort RP set

Dave:
Warms up with 2 plates / side for 25 reps. Then he goes to his go weight after just one set. (I remember him doing exactly that once after we started back after a long time not training together. He had just been warming up that way when training alone. Before then, he'd simply do the reps with the lighter weights b/c that's what I did...)

So, it's really up to you. If you're injured, you can't lift. If you're making progress in the gym (even it that the reps are a little below your absolute best b/c of a fatiguing warm-up protocol), then you're going to grow.



-S

That is literally one of the best answers I've ever recieved on any forum. I truly appreciate it! Makes perfect sense, Thank you for the detail. I will probably continue to warmup a little more than the average trainee would just because of my situation.

Thanks again! Great forum!

[Scott Stevenson]

That is literally one of the best answers I've ever recieved on any forum. I truly appreciate it! Makes perfect sense, Thank you for the detail. I will probably continue to warmup a little more than the average trainee would just because of my situation.

Thanks again! Great forum!

Well, shit, that's great to know! Glad to help out. (I feel like saying, "You ain't seen nuthin' yet," but I'd probably jinx myself and give a crappy answer the next time... )

-S

[Hakan Çelik]

Hi Scott do you count warming up time in total training time? Because warm up time can extend the workout time a little bit. Is it true that more than sixty minutes total workout time is harmful by increasing the cortisol ?

[Scott Stevenson]

Hi Scott do you count warming up time in total training time? Because warm up time can extend the workout time a little bit. Is it true that more than sixty minutes total workout time is harmful by increasing the cortisol ?

I guess because I have yet to find a way to control time (bodybuilding is kind of about controlling space), I'd have no choice but to count those warm-up sets as part of the total work-out time.

You can prevent the cortisol decrease simply by taking in carbohydrate during training, preferably with protein to promote myofibrillar protein synthesis and further limit breakdown.

Interestingly, one recent study showed that increases in cortisol were correlated with muscle growth, but this is likely a function of training harder (the harder one trains, the higher the cortisol levels): 1. Mitchell CJ, Churchward-Venne TA, Bellamy L, Parise G, Baker SK, and Phillips SM. Muscular and Systemic Correlates of Resistance Training-Induced Muscle Hypertrophy. PLoS One 8: e78636, 2013. Handle Redirect


However, when you take in a carbohydrate contaiing intra / peri-workout recovery supplement, blunting the cortisol increases leads to greater gains:

1. Bird SP, Tarpenning KM, and Marino FE. Independent and combined effects of liquid carbohydrate/essential amino acid ingestion on hormonal and muscular adaptations following resistance training in untrained men. Eur J Appl Physiol 97: 225-238, 2006. Handle Redirect
2. Tarpenning KM, Wiswell RA, Hawkins SA, and Marcell TJ. Influence of weight training exercise and modification of hormonal response on skeletal muscle growth. J Sci Med Sport 4: 431-446, 2001.

(This is all in the book, BTW.)

-S