Help Unplanned cruise ?

[nordan]

Hi Scott. Just finished up day 2 on my third week back after my longer than normal cruise due to vacation. After a rough start in terms of strength levels dipping substantially the good news is strength is on the upswing and I am so motivated to train which is what we want.

My issue is my joints are having non of it (Shoulder wise) they just don't feel 100% if you know what I mean. Signs that they haven't recovered as well as they should of considering the amount of time off.

I have this blast incorporated a lot more overhead work in an effort to increase strength and size here which may be the cause. I have had injuries in the past which has deterred me from hitting overhead pressing regularly so I have tended to opt for "easier moves" so to speak such as Side raises and Rear Delt work however I have found recently that I am finding it more and more difficult to progress on these with the exercises being so limited.

What would your strategy be in order to allow my joints to rest up and what are your thoughts on having to cruise at such an early stage ? Would it be wise to take a 1 week cruise (1/3 of blast)? Thanks in advance.


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[Scott Stevenson]

Hi Scott. Just finished up day 2 on my third week back after my longer than normal cruise due to vacation. After a rough start in terms of strength levels dipping substantially the good news is strength is on the upswing and I am so motivated to train which is what we want.

My issue is my joints are having non of it (Shoulder wise) they just don't feel 100% if you know what I mean. Signs that they haven't recovered as well as they should of considering the amount of time off.

I have this blast incorporated a lot more overhead work in an effort to increase strength and size here which may be the cause. I have had injuries in the past which has deterred me from hitting overhead pressing regularly so I have tended to opt for "easier moves" so to speak such as Side raises and Rear Delt work however I have found recently that I am finding it more and more difficult to progress on these with the exercises being so limited.

What would your strategy be in order to allow my joints to rest up and what are your thoughts on having to cruise at such an early stage ? Would it be wise to take a 1 week cruise (1/3 of blast)? Thanks in advance.


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Sounds to me like you're knowingly doing exercises that cause shoulder joint inflammation.

I'd fix your diet - reducing inflammation there.

Avoid exercises that cause pain in the joint, during and/or after training.

Evaluate (with a professional) your should joint - this is far beyond what I cover here as entire books are written on this topic and address whatever is going on there (cartilage issues, inflexibility., rotator cuff weakness, etc. ,etc, etc...)

During your cruises, you may have to maintain your shoulder joint integrity by doing pre-hab (preventative) exercises there, depending upon what your individual situation demands...

-S

[nordan]

Sounds to me like you're knowingly doing exercises that cause shoulder joint inflammation.

I'd fix your diet - reducing inflammation there.

Avoid exercises that cause pain in the joint, during and/or after training.

Evaluate (with a professional) your should joint - this is far beyond what I cover here as entire books are written on this topic and address whatever is going on there (cartilage issues, inflexibility., rotator cuff weakness, etc. ,etc, etc...)

During your cruises, you may have to maintain your shoulder joint integrity by doing pre-hab (preventative) exercises there, depending upon what your individual situation demands...

-S

Yeah I understand what you mean.. I know upright rows are a no go for me so avoid at all costs. I kind of fancied testing the water a little by hitting some out of the norm compound exercises (for me anyway) as there is only so much progression one can make by using the same shoulder press machine and side/rear delt variations (5's, straight sets, 21's). Obviously these still seem to be out of bounds which is frustrating as I literally have to use the "one" shoulder press machine for all if not the majority of my loading sets.. I have literally done every variation in the book, single arm, alternate press, palms facing etc etc.. even with all this I still plateau pretty easy here hitting it nearly every week and feel I am missing out on significant shoulder development but I guess it is what it is.

I am seeing a specialist tonight and supplementing with a tonne of curcumin multiple times a day in order to reduce the inflammation.

[Scott Stevenson]

Yeah I understand what you mean.. I know upright rows are a no go for me so avoid at all costs. I kind of fancied testing the water a little by hitting some out of the norm compound exercises (for me anyway) as there is only so much progression one can make by using the same shoulder press machine and side/rear delt variations (5's, straight sets, 21's). Obviously these still seem to be out of bounds which is frustrating as I literally have to use the "one" shoulder press machine for all if not the majority of my loading sets.. I have literally done every variation in the book, single arm, alternate press, palms facing etc etc.. even with all this I still plateau pretty easy here hitting it nearly every week and feel I am missing out on significant shoulder development but I guess it is what it is.

I am seeing a specialist tonight and supplementing with a tonne of curcumin multiple times a day in order to reduce the inflammation.

Are the exercises you're using causing pain, during or after, that are obviously due to the training?...

Are you making gains elsewhere in size and strength?...

The curumin should have a noticeable anti-inflammatory / analgesic effect, but if you're using it to mask the pain, you're not doing yourself any good.

Plus, even if you're taking in a "tonne" of it, it may not be the right kind or amount.

As an aside, I get the feeling you might just want to rant a bit about your struggles, which is fine. IN that case, I'll bow out generally.

If you want to get to the bottom of these kinds of issues, attention to detail, such as responding to each of my suggestions and providing details of your diet (When I bring it up) and supplementation (when you mention it) is helpful. (Not in the business of pulling teeth. )

-S

[nordan]

Are the exercises you're using causing pain, during or after, that are obviously due to the training?...

Are you making gains elsewhere in size and strength?...

The curumin should have a noticeable anti-inflammatory / analgesic effect, but if you're using it to mask the pain, you're not doing yourself any good.

Plus, even if you're taking in a "tonne" of it, it may not be the right kind or amount.

As an aside, I get the feeling you might just want to rant a bit about your struggles, which is fine. IN that case, I'll bow out generally.

If you want to get to the bottom of these kinds of issues, attention to detail, such as responding to each of my suggestions and providing details of your diet (When I bring it up) and supplementation (when you mention it) is helpful. (Not in the business of pulling teeth. )

-S

With the upright rows its throughout so I avoid at all costs now. No pain on any other exercises really however joints get beaten up fast if I do a lot of BB overhead work.

Tbh I've just come back from a holiday which resulted in me losing a lot of strength and size so its difficult to tell. I am most likely if at all just returning to that pre holiday level.

Re curcumin - I am taking 800mg 2-3 times a day.

I am not one to rant in all honesty however it may seem like that's the case.

How would one "fix" there diet as such, inflammation wise?

Diet is as follows, any input would be greatly appreciated:

Training day, training PM, all carbs around workout perimeter with the focus being post workout. Approx: 2800 kcals - 295g Pro, 260g Carb, 60g Fat

Meal 1: 1 egg, 300ml egg whites, 5g organic butter
Meal 2: 200g chicken, 100g green beans, 2g eskimo 3 fish oil
Meal 3: 1 venison burger or 120g tuna steak, 1 egg, 20g cheese, salad or broccoli, 2g eskimo 3 fish oil
Meal 4 (pre wo meal): 200g chicken, 10g organic coconut oil, 1 banana
Meal 5 (Intra): 30g pepto pro, 40g cyclic dextrin, 34g xtend bcaa)
Meal 6 (45-1 hr post training): 130g turkey/chicken, 280g white potato, 100g green beans/broccoli, 25g iso, 60g coco pops, 60g cheerios, 300ml almond milk, 2 rice krispie cereal bars

Rest day: Approx: 1800 kcals - 295g Pro, 30g Carb, 60-65g Fat

Meal 1: 1 egg, 300ml egg whites, 5g organic butter
Meal 2: 200g chicken, 100g green beans, 2g eskimo 3 fish oil
Meal 3: 240g tuna steak, 10g evoo, green beans or broccoli, 2g eskimo 3 fish oil
Meal 4: 40g iso, 20g cashew butter
Meal 5: 130g chicken, 2 eggs, greens
Meal 6: 25g iso, 300g 0% greek yogurt

I am trying to reverse diet so will add carbs initially to intra shake (30g) as of next week if I have maintained / lost weight then not quite sure from there.

Many thanks.

[Scott Stevenson]

With the upright rows its throughout so I avoid at all costs now. No pain on any other exercises really however joints get beaten up fast if I do a lot of BB overhead work.

So you feel NO pain, stiffness, ashiness, etc. on overhead pressing whatsoever in the gym - it's all after the fact?...

Tbh I've just come back from a holiday which resulted in me losing a lot of strength and size so its difficult to tell. I am most likely if at all just returning to that pre holiday level.

So, I'd not be concerned about progression when you can't tell whether your'e stagnating.

Re curcumin - I am taking 800mg 2-3 times a day.

The no-name, while label brand called "curcumin®?"

I am not one to rant in all honesty however it may seem like that's the case.

It kinda sorta does...

How would one "fix" there diet as such, inflammation wise?

One would eat less inflammatory foods and consume more anti-inflammatory foods.

Diet is as follows, any input would be greatly appreciated:

Training day, training PM, all carbs around workout perimeter with the focus being post workout. Approx: 2800 kcals - 295g Pro, 260g Carb, 60g Fat

Meal 1: 1 egg, 300ml egg whites, 5g organic butter
Meal 2: 200g chicken, 100g green beans, 2g eskimo 3 fish oil
Meal 3: 1 venison burger or 120g tuna steak, 1 egg, 20g cheese, salad or broccoli, 2g eskimo 3 fish oil
Meal 4 (pre wo meal): 200g chicken, 10g organic coconut oil, 1 banana
Meal 5 (Intra): 30g pepto pro, 40g cyclic dextrin, 34g xtend bcaa)
Meal 6 (45-1 hr post training): 130g turkey/chicken, 280g white potato, 100g green beans/broccoli, 25g iso, 60g coco pops, 60g cheerios, 300ml almond milk, 2 rice krispie cereal bars

Rest day: Approx: 1800 kcals - 295g Pro, 30g Carb, 60-65g Fat

Meal 1: 1 egg, 300ml egg whites, 5g organic butter
Meal 2: 200g chicken, 100g green beans, 2g eskimo 3 fish oil
Meal 3: 240g tuna steak, 10g evoo, green beans or broccoli, 2g eskimo 3 fish oil
Meal 4: 40g iso, 20g cashew butter
Meal 5: 130g chicken, 2 eggs, greens
Meal 6: 25g iso, 300g 0% greek yogurt

I am trying to reverse diet so will add carbs initially to intra shake (30g) as of next week if I have maintained / lost weight then not quite sure from there.

Many thanks.

That doesn't look to bad, actually, but I'd add more fruits and vegetables (anti-oxidants are involved here, too: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5075620/ )

You might also experiment with switching out your butter and nut butters and or the yoghurt (Even just the brand!). (Once when eating a good bit of greek yoghurt, I notice extreme differences in GI distress with one vs. another brand, which could have to do with the probiotics therein.)

Event hough you're taking fish oil, I'd start eating more salmon / arctic fish. Make a wholesale change from eggs, beef and butter to more salmon and high omega-3 sauces and many will notice a difference in a week in terms of joints and Even DOMS.

(I"m going to leave it to you google anti-inflammatory diet here, as this is a first step I think would be a good one to take. )

-S

[nordan]

So you feel NO pain, stiffness, ashiness, etc. on overhead pressing whatsoever in the gym - it's all after the fact?...



So, I'd not be concerned about progression when you can't tell whether your'e stagnating.



The no-name, while label brand called "curcumin®?"



It kinda sorta does...


One would eat less inflammatory foods and consume more anti-inflammatory foods.



That doesn't look to bad, actually, but I'd add more fruits and vegetables (anti-oxidants are involved here, too: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5075620/ )

You might also experiment with switching out your butter and nut butters and or the yoghurt (Even just the brand!). (Once when eating a good bit of greek yoghurt, I notice extreme differences in GI distress with one vs. another brand, which could have to do with the probiotics therein.)

Event hough you're taking fish oil, I'd start eating more salmon / arctic fish. Make a wholesale change from eggs, beef and butter to more salmon and high omega-3 sauces and many will notice a difference in a week in terms of joints and Even DOMS.

(I"m going to leave it to you google anti-inflammatory diet here, as this is a first step I think would be a good one to take. )

-S

Sorry Scott, I should of elaborated a little more..

In regards to the overhead pressing, not that I can recall.. maybe a little bit of stiffness.. Like I say, I have really avoided/limited any substantial barbell overhead work especially throughout prep purely because I was scared of getting injured (due to being tired and trying to force PB's etc) .. I do really warm up my rotator's before any upper body workout and I hit chest prior to delts to further ensure everything is running smoothly.

Pain throughout upright rows which is why they are 100% out.

Curcumin brand is "Life extension" super bio curcumin 400mg capsules.

I do incorporate more salmon throughout the off season as calories allow for more fats and less voluminous foods so for sure will be back to this soon (I am in the process of reverse dieting so slowly adjusting expenditure then will be increasing kcals)

I forgot to include that every morning without fail pre / intra meal 1 I consume
1 lemon & lime, 15ml apple cider vinegar, 1 probiotic (15 billion), 5g glutamine, 10g greens powder which I find quite helpful.

I will check out your link..

Am I right in thinking you are an avid fan of kow-loon oil ? or am I mistaken here?

[Scott Stevenson]

Sorry Scott, I should of elaborated a little more..

In regards to the overhead pressing, not that I can recall.. maybe a little bit of stiffness.. Like I say, I have really avoided/limited any substantial barbell overhead work especially throughout prep purely because I was scared of getting injured (due to being tired and trying to force PB's etc) .. I do really warm up my rotator's before any upper body workout and I hit chest prior to delts to further ensure everything is running smoothly.

Pain throughout upright rows which is why they are 100% out.

OK, so you can overhead press now without pain and are making progress (from a post above).

You only concern is that upright rows cause pain?...

What did the practitioner say - I think you had a visit, eh?..

Curcumin brand is "Life extension" super bio curcumin 400mg capsules.

Make sure you take these on an empty stomach to the extent possible. Even taking a dose in the middle of the night if you wake and this won't disrupt sleep.

I do incorporate more salmon throughout the off season as calories allow for more fats and less voluminous foods so for sure will be back to this soon (I am in the process of reverse dieting so slowly adjusting expenditure then will be increasing kcals)

Well, you might be able to see how replace fat cal with those from salmon.

I forgot to include that every morning without fail pre / intra meal 1 I consume
1 lemon & lime, 15ml apple cider vinegar, 1 probiotic (15 billion), 5g glutamine, 10g greens powder which I find quite helpful.

Intra?...

This is helpful for what (in relationship to your shoulders)?...

Am I right in thinking you are an avid fan of kow-loon oil ? or am I mistaken here?

As far as I know, I'm the person who introduced this, so to speak, to the bodybuilding world. However, for you, given I can't even tell if you know what structures are involved in your pain or what the diagnosis would be, and that your'e recently just injured yourself, I'd not suggest you use a topical analgesic.

-S

[nordan]

OK, so you can overhead press now without pain and are making progress (from a post above).

You only concern is that upright rows cause pain?...

What did the practitioner say - I think you had a visit, eh?..


Make sure you take these on an empty stomach to the extent possible. Even taking a dose in the middle of the night if you wake and this won't disrupt sleep.


Well, you might be able to see how replace fat cal with those from salmon.


Intra?...

This is helpful for what (in relationship to your shoulders)?...


As far as I know, I'm the person who introduced this, so to speak, to the bodybuilding world. However, for you, given I can't even tell if you know what structures are involved in your pain or what the diagnosis would be, and that your'e recently just injured yourself, I'd not suggest you use a topical analgesic.

-S

Performing overhead pressing was fine however that was prior to my current situation. I haven't attempted any direct shoulder work since things started feeling rough. Only some rotator cuff exercises.

I went in yesterday, did legs fine, avoided hack squats to avoid direct pressure to problem area. Did a little pump to test the waters, super light, 5 second negatives.. avoided any direct delt work so just played with back, chest, abs, arms.. was fine to an extent however lots of clicking and popping in the OPPOSITE shoulder when doing single arm neutral grip machine rows (first exercise).. no pain though and felt fine to continue. Felt a little weird a couple hours afterwards when laying in bed though.

It's strange Scott because it doesn't feel too bad now which is why I say I am not great at auto regulating. Things feel fine until AFTER I do whatever it is. Apart from upright rows where I get direct feedback there and then which is why I avoid at all costs.

Re the practitioner he said it looks like I have pulled a muscle in my right trap, performed some deep muscle tissue to it and you could feel it was a little rough. Returning next month for some additional and what will be regular tissue work as I have neglected this over the last 6 months or so due to the cost.

I may just have to accept the fact that I am going to have to just hit legs for the foreseeable.. and give my upper body another week of rest.. do you think ramping up to tier 3 and just focus on hitting legs would be a viable option firstly in an attempt to match caloric output from tier 2 full body and secondly to provide additional growth down there? Will this have a negative effect upon returning to my usual tier 2 split when I can train properly ?

Re the curcumin, I will adopt this method.. I always found taking with food seemed to make things feel better but if literature and yourself suggest otherwise that uptake is better on an empty then I shall do just that.

Thoughts on Boswellia adding to my joint supp stack ? Currently using Glucosamine & chrondroitin @ 1000mg once a day, with eskimo 3 omega and 800mg curcumin @ 3 x a day as well.

I have looked at my diet and have adjusted to incorporate salmon as of tomorrow breakfast seems the most viable option here.

Re the lemon and lime shake.. it has nothing to do with my shoulders, it was more to do with the fact you mention I need more vegetables however I am consuming greens of some sort with every meal but 1 (pre / intra wo).

Well if it helps then it's something I need to use.. I see people raving about it on JP's forum 3x a day on effected area.

As always.. thanks for the input to all my questions.

[Scott Stevenson]

Performing overhead pressing was fine however that was prior to my current situation. I haven't attempted any direct shoulder work since things started feeling rough. Only some rotator cuff exercises.

I went in yesterday, did legs fine, avoided hack squats to avoid direct pressure to problem area. Did a little pump to test the waters, super light, 5 second negatives.. avoided any direct delt work so just played with back, chest, abs, arms.. was fine to an extent however lots of clicking and popping in the OPPOSITE shoulder when doing single arm neutral grip machine rows (first exercise).. no pain though and felt fine to continue. Felt a little weird a couple hours afterwards when laying in bed though.

It's strange Scott because it doesn't feel too bad now which is why I say I am not great at auto regulating. Things feel fine until AFTER I do whatever it is. Apart from upright rows where I get direct feedback there and then which is why I avoid at all costs.

Re the practitioner he said it looks like I have pulled a muscle in my right trap, performed some deep muscle tissue to it and you could feel it was a little rough. Returning next month for some additional and what will be regular tissue work as I have neglected this over the last 6 months or so due to the cost.

Not much I can say there except it sounds like said practitioner didn't diagnose all the rest of what you describe above. (I simply can't do that online.)

I may just have to accept the fact that I am going to have to just hit legs for the foreseeable.. and give my upper body another week of rest.. do you think ramping up to tier 3 and just focus on hitting legs would be a viable option firstly in an attempt to match caloric output from tier 2 full body and secondly to provide additional growth down there? Will this have a negative effect upon returning to my usual tier 2 split when I can train properly ?

Why don't you give it a shot and find out?..

Re the curcumin, I will adopt this method.. I always found taking with food seemed to make things feel better but if literature and yourself suggest otherwise that uptake is better on an empty then I shall do just that.

Search for BCM-95 here on this site and you'll see what I've written about it.

Thoughts on Boswellia adding to my joint supp stack ? Currently using Glucosamine & chrondroitin @ 1000mg once a day, with eskimo 3 omega and 800mg curcumin @ 3 x a day as well.

The more things you change, the less you'll know what is working (if anything).

I have looked at my diet and have adjusted to incorporate salmon as of tomorrow breakfast seems the most viable option here.

Re the lemon and lime shake.. it has nothing to do with my shoulders, it was more to do with the fact you mention I need more vegetables however I am consuming greens of some sort with every meal but 1 (pre / intra wo).

You could have a fruit smoothie in your intra (mixed berries, for instance) and do the same in your post-workout in place of the cereal, etc.

Well if it helps then it's something I need to use.. I see people raving about it on JP's forum 3x a day on effected area.

I have no idea other than the trap what's going on in your shoulder joints (or actually, come to think if it, if the issue is actually in your should joints per se), so I can't say as to whether that would make sense.

As always.. thanks for the input to all my questions.

Sure! You might search around a bit more on some of these things.

Your biggest issue - your biggest impediment - and it's simply manifesting right now in these particular "issues" is not being pro-active in finding solutions, i.e., learning about the how's n why's of what you're doing, as well as trusting yourself, too. You might ask how often generally you see an issue, research solution and then simply apply it vs. seeking out help and confirmation from others. This is not to say that the latter isn't a good thing to do, but ultimately, you are your own guru.

-S