Ongoing Soreness in Quads

[BGD]

I've doing really well in the last few months on FT and progressed to Basic Tier 3 but at times hover back to Tier 2 when I'm nearing the end of a blast or have a long week at work.

My training schedule is:

Sat: Upper Load/Lower Pump
Sun: Rest
Mon: Lower Load/Upper Pump
Tues: Rest
Wed: Upper MR
Thurs: Lower MR
Fri: Rest

Over the last two blasts I've been struggling in the leg dept. Not so much with incremental weight or rep increases but in respect of my quads and both patella's being constantly sore and a general feeling tiredness in them. It's a little hard to articulate. It's not the soreness you would feel when coming back from a lay-off and doing multiple sets of Leg Extension to failure, more like the dull soreness and feeling of tiredness you get from long distance running. btw, I'm not having any issues in my calves or Upper Body. I'm happy that my nutrition is in check. Sleep is always an issue as I'm a nightshift worker but I have been making a concerted effort in this dept and am now able to track my sleeping patterns etc.

I posted on the forum a while back where I thought I was doing my Leg Pump Sets incorrectly as I was basically making them out to be all out widow-maker type 15 - 25 rep style sets. I was still doing continuous style reps on these sets but the weight certainly wasn't what I would call a light (for me anyway) pump set. It would class it as more of a 'high rep' working set

During my last two intensive cruise period's I dropped the Thigh/Quad MR's entirely but coming back into a new blast I was still feeling them.

I'm thinking I'm still using too much total weight (which I do to allow be to reach a true positive failure) on my pump thigh exercises and this combined with my total weekly leg training volume is causing a lack of recovery time?

This is how I foresee some options:

1. Focus on Thigh Exercises using '5's in the Hole' so I'm forced to really back of my working weights to achieve failure. Same with 21's etc

2. Pre-Exhaust sets..... Leg Ext before Thigh Compound Exercises. Again, I will be forced to lower total weight on thigh movement.

3. Drop back to the 3 day 'Family Man Plan' for more rcovery

4. Drop Leg Pump & MR's back to Tier 1 protocol.

5. Keep the same training schedule but don't work to failure on Leg exercises, stop 1 - 2 reps short.


Any feedback would be appreciated.

[Scott Stevenson]

I've doing really well in the last few months on FT and progressed to Basic Tier 3 but at times hover back to Tier 2 when I'm nearing the end of a blast or have a long week at work.

My training schedule is:

Sat: Upper Load/Lower Pump
Sun: Rest
Mon: Lower Load/Upper Pump
Tues: Rest
Wed: Upper MR
Thurs: Lower MR
Fri: Rest

Over the last two blasts I've been struggling in the leg dept. Not so much with incremental weight or rep increases but in respect of my quads and both patella's being constantly sore and a general feeling tiredness in them. It's a little hard to articulate. It's not the soreness you would feel when coming back from a lay-off and doing multiple sets of Leg Extension to failure, more like the dull soreness and feeling of tiredness you get from long distance running. btw, I'm not having any issues in my calves or Upper Body. I'm happy that my nutrition is in check. Sleep is always an issue as I'm a nightshift worker but I have been making a concerted effort in this dept and am now able to track my sleeping patterns etc.

I posted on the forum a while back where I thought I was doing my Leg Pump Sets incorrectly as I was basically making them out to be all out widow-maker type 15 - 25 rep style sets. I was still doing continuous style reps on these sets but the weight certainly wasn't what I would call a light (for me anyway) pump set. It would class it as more of a 'high rep' working set

So, just to be sure, a "high rep working set" is what you've been doing for quads since you stopped doing the WM's (instead of pump sets)?...

During my last two intensive cruise period's I dropped the Thigh/Quad MR's entirely but coming back into a new blast I was still feeling them.

I'm thinking I'm still using too much total weight (which I do to allow be to reach a true positive failure) on my pump thigh exercises and this combined with my total weekly leg training volume is causing a lack of recovery time?

This is how I foresee some options:

1. Focus on Thigh Exercises using '5's in the Hole' so I'm forced to really back of my working weights to achieve failure. Same with 21's etc

2. Pre-Exhaust sets..... Leg Ext before Thigh Compound Exercises. Again, I will be forced to lower total weight on thigh movement.

3. Drop back to the 3 day 'Family Man Plan' for more rcovery

4. Drop Leg Pump & MR's back to Tier 1 protocol.

5. Keep the same training schedule but don't work to failure on Leg exercises, stop 1 - 2 reps short.


Any feedback would be appreciated.

A few questions:

Are your quads growing and getting stronger (in isolation movements)?

What kind of stretches are you doing for quads?...

What exercises are you doing for quads, esp. the isolation exercises? Knee extensions are notorious for patellofemoral pain (pain "on" / underneath the patella)...

Are you quad dominant in your thighs and / or do you feel you drive moreso with the quads vs. hams / glutes. As and example, some folks (myself) will tend to just grow better hams and glutes doing barbell back squats unless performing them with the quads very much in mind, whereas others naturally squat in a way that produces great quad growth (think Tom Platz and an upright / Oly squat posture).

-S

-S

[BGD]

So, just to be sure, a "high rep working set" is what you've been doing for quads since you stopped doing the WM's (instead of pump sets)?...


A few questions:

Are your quads growing and getting stronger (in isolation movements)?

What kind of stretches are you doing for quads?...

What exercises are you doing for quads, esp. the isolation exercises? Knee extensions are notorious for patellofemoral pain (pain "on" / underneath the patella)...

Are you quad dominant in your thighs and / or do you feel you drive moreso with the quads vs. hams / glutes. As and example, some folks (myself) will tend to just grow better hams and glutes doing barbell back squats unless performing them with the quads very much in mind, whereas others naturally squat in a way that produces great quad growth (think Tom Platz and an upright / Oly squat posture).

-S

-S

I've been doing leg pump sets (in superset fashion) as per the FT E-Book but I feel that they are not so much a pump set (in comparison to my other exercises on chest, back, delts, calves etc). Particularly the 1st compound exercise of the superset. I'm using a weight on my compound leg pump sets that lets me to get to failure somewhere between 15 - 25 reps but this 1st set still ends up a 'balls to the wall set' and thats why I refer to it as a widow maker type set, maybe not the right term but it certainly feels like it.

So for example, on a Lower Load Day #1, I might do something like:

Leg Presses: 330kgs x 13 (1 rep short of failure)
2 min rest
Zig Zag: Leg Ext: 70kg x 15 (failure)
2min rest
Leg Presses: 300kg x 12 (failure)

..,..then on a 'Leg Pump' day an example would be something like:

Leg Presses: 280kgs x 25 (failure)
Lunges: Body weight + 10kg DB's x 50 paces
Seated Calf: 20kgs x 30 (failure)
1 minute rest
Leg Presses: 220kg x 15 (failure
Seated Leg Curls: 40kgs x 30 (failure)

I get the impression I'm treating my 'Leg Pump' days like a high rep but still overly heavyish leg day and not a lighter Pump day as you envisioned in the e-book?

IMO I'm Quad dominant in leg my exercises. Body wise my quads are more developed in both size and strength compared to my upper body. (pic attached)

I never had issues with knee/quad pain before and throughout my training years I've pretty much have always used a low volume/frequency approach (Mentzer/Yates). FT is a turn around in both Volume and Frequency so to speak but jumped on board and have loved every minute of it. I've just hit a temporary speed bump thats all!!

I'm still increasing either a rep or two or small weight increments each workout on 45 deg Leg Presses, Horizontal Machine Leg Presses, Vertical and Machine Leg Presses and Leg Ext, Ham exercises.

In regards to Leg Extensions, I've never suffered from knees pain doing Leg Extensions not matter what weight I use, so I'm confident this is not the cause. The pain/uncomfortableness is certainly more prominent on squats and I can feel it just warming up with the bar. I recently began to stall on both Barbell and Smith Squats so I dropped them as I assumed they where the cause of all this.

Even on the Leg Press type exercises I can feel a dull pain after only 1 rep into the set. Having thought about it little more to try and narrow the origin of the pain itself I guess I could pin point it in two places.

1. I feel a dull pain emanating around the top of the knee cap on both knees.

2. Also feel a dull pain high up on both front upper/outer area of the quads - just below the hips.

In regards to stretches I either do a 1 minute Sissy Squat stretch or alternatively a standard flexibility type stretch where I stand on one leg and pull my other leg/ankle up to my buttocks. I also do groin stretches. I will add that I do my stretches after my entire workout and not straight after completing the body part I'm working.

The various compound Leg movements I have been using over my blasts have been:

Barbell Squats
Smith Squats
Smith Front Squats
45 degree Leg Presses
Vertical Machine Leg Presses
Horizontal Machine Leg Presses
Seated Upright Leg Presses (Cable type machine)

Isolation movements for Zig-Zagging sets.

Leg Extensions
Split Squats (Dumbell)
Lunges
Sissy Squats

Seated Leg Curls
Standing Leg Curls
Lying Leg Curls
Stiff-Leg Deadlifts

[Scott Stevenson]

I've been doing leg pump sets (in superset fashion) as per the FT E-Book but I feel that they are not so much a pump set (in comparison to my other exercises on chest, back, delts, calves etc). Particularly the 1st compound exercise of the superset. I'm using a weight on my compound leg pump sets that lets me to get to failure somewhere between 15 - 25 reps but this 1st set still ends up a 'balls to the wall set' and thats why I refer to it as a widow maker type set, maybe not the right term but it certainly feels like it.

I'm not sure how your thigh pump sets differ from those for other muscle groups. Do you just train harder?...

There should be continuous tension during the entire set, so no stopping. A widow maker is intentionally discontinuous so you can get as many reps as possible without resting by putting the load down.

So for example, on a Lower Load Day #1, I might do something like:

Leg Presses: 330kgs x 13 (1 rep short of failure)
2 min rest
Zig Zag: Leg Ext: 70kg x 15 (failure)
2min rest
Leg Presses: 300kg x 12 (failure)

OK, so if you're going to do sort of mid-Tier version like this (only one isolation exercise), I'd make that isolation exercise a ham exercise, not a quad one (at least for the time being).

..,..then on a 'Leg Pump' day an example would be something like:

Leg Presses: 280kgs x 25 (failure)
Lunges: Body weight + 10kg DB's x 50 paces
Seated Calf: 20kgs x 30 (failure)
1 minute rest
Leg Presses: 220kg x 15 (failure
Seated Leg Curls: 40kgs x 30 (failure)

Lunges really can't be used for pump sets b/c you can don't continuous reps when taking steps.

I get the impression I'm treating my 'Leg Pump' days like a high rep but still overly heavyish leg day and not a lighter Pump day as you envisioned in the e-book?

You're doing something different in the execution, I think, even when doing the reps continuously, but the main thing I'm seeing is doing discontinuous reps, which can be a much tougher way of doing these.

IMO I'm Quad dominant in leg my exercises. Body wise my quads are more developed in both size and strength compared to my upper body. (pic attached)

What's more relevant here is your quad vs. ham dominance (not quad vs. upper body)...

I never had issues with knee/quad pain before and throughout my training years I've pretty much have always used a low volume/frequency approach (Mentzer/Yates). FT is a turn around in both Volume and Frequency so to speak but jumped on board and have loved every minute of it. I've just hit a temporary speed bump thats all!!

I'm still increasing either a rep or two or small weight increments each workout on 45 deg Leg Presses, Horizontal Machine Leg Presses, Vertical and Machine Leg Presses and Leg Ext, Ham exercises.

In regards to Leg Extensions, I've never suffered from knees pain doing Leg Extensions not matter what weight I use, so I'm confident this is not the cause. The pain/uncomfortableness is certainly more prominent on squats and I can feel it just warming up with the bar. I recently began to stall on both Barbell and Smith Squats so I dropped them as I assumed they where the cause of all this.

This is the key thing I would advise against - if an exercise is causing pain, right form the get go, don't do it. Find another one and if they all cause pain, find a treatment (which you could / should do anyway).

I've avoided what I feel is certain overuse injuries continuously for years upon years by just using some common sense so to speak and self-restraint and NOT done exercises that were exacerbating / causing / flaring up arthritis, tendonitis, etc.

Even on the Leg Press type exercises I can feel a dull pain after only 1 rep into the set. Having thought about it little more to try and narrow the origin of the pain itself I guess I could pin point it in two places.

I would do one rep and then find something else

1. I feel a dull pain emanating around the top of the knee cap on both knees.

2. Also feel a dull pain high up on both front upper/outer area of the quads - just below the hips.

I can't diagnose you, but this looks like patellar tendonitis and what I had for a while a few years back (top of the thigh issue). #2 was from my belt catching / driving into my thighs at the bottom of squatting movements. I moved my belt up my waist and it was fixed.

In regards to stretches I either do a 1 minute Sissy Squat stretch or alternatively a standard flexibility type stretch where I stand on one leg and pull my other leg/ankle up to my buttocks. I also do groin stretches. I will add that I do my stretches after my entire workout and not straight after completing the body part I'm working.

I'm going to guess that the stretches also aggravate / create the pain we're taking about here(?)...

I'd drop the sissy squat stretch and a unilateral stretch (if it's pain free) like you describe above, except use the round thigh pad you find on some lat pulldown machines (put your foot on top of that and drive you hips forward).

Do you stretches after training the muscle group you're stretching. This will create a metabolic stress effect you're not getting from doing them after the muscle is recovered, whereas doing the stretches when "cold" means the connective tissue is less pliable (lower temperature) so you've got less potential to increase flexibility (theoretically), but you'll be stretching more along the longitudinal axis of the muscle (series elastic component) and less perpendicular to this axis (under stretch b/c of the edema d/t the pump you've just causes), which would hypothetically stretch the muscle to allow for greater volume. (This 2nd part is a bit iffy, but if you get greater range of motion on the stretch, the when cold, this will pull MORE on the patellar tendon, which isn't happy right now, whereas there probably is no true need for improving flexibility so the focus here should be on metabolic stress.)

If you do an occlusion stretch (without trying to stretch too much but rather focusing on the effort in creating occlusion), you'll get more stimulus from your quads.

STILL - if the stretching causes pain (when warm or cold), i'd NOT try to force a stretch at all.

The various compound Leg movements I have been using over my blasts have been:

Barbell Squats
Smith Squats
Smith Front Squats
45 degree Leg Presses
Vertical Machine Leg Presses
Horizontal Machine Leg Presses
Seated Upright Leg Presses (Cable type machine)

Isolation movements for Zig-Zagging sets.

Leg Extensions
Split Squats (Dumbell)
Lunges
Sissy Squats

Seated Leg Curls
Standing Leg Curls
Lying Leg Curls
Stiff-Leg Deadlifts

I'd drop the lunges and split squats (if you're alternating legs as with a lunge) for now and stick with things like leg extension, sissy squat, somersault squats and smith sissy hack squats.

-S

[BGD]

Scott,

Thanks for your advice, I appreciate it!!

I'm not sure how your thigh pump sets differ from those for other muscle groups. Do you just train harder?...

I think I do end up training harder on my leg pump sets purely because of the total load I'm still using. Probably the best analogy I can think of is that it appears I've turned what is supposed to be a Leg Pump day into a still very heavy - Higher Rep Leg day

There should be continuous tension during the entire set, so no stopping. A widow maker is intentionally discontinuous so you can get as many reps as possible without resting by putting the load down.

In that case my reference to doing 'Windowmaker' sets is incorrect....but they feel like they are! My reps are continuous, deep and as full range as possible without locking out or stopping at all until reaching failure.

OK, so if you're going to do sort of mid-Tier version like this (only one isolation exercise), I'd make that isolation exercise a ham exercise, not a quad one (at least for the time being).

Got it!

Lunges really can't be used for pump sets b/c you can don't continuous reps when taking steps.

Dead right, I'll make the change!

You're doing something different in the execution, I think, even when doing the reps continuously, but the main thing I'm seeing is doing discontinuous reps, which can be a much tougher way of doing these.

As mentioned above, my reps are discontinuous but I think my overall loading on leg exercises is probably too heavy. Again, purely because I am trying to achieve failure within the15 - 25 rep range so I think to counter this I really need to decrease the weight's I use on leg movements and increase my reps to 30 - 50 to failure?

This is the key thing I would advise against - if an exercise is causing pain, right form the get go, don't do it. Find another one and if they all cause pain, find a treatment (which you could / should do anyway).

I've avoided what I feel is certain overuse injuries continuously for years upon years by just using some common sense so to speak and self-restraint and NOT done exercises that were exacerbating / causing / flaring up arthritis, tendonitis, etc. /quote]

I guess I've been a little hesitant to drop both Squats and Smith Squats because they have always been staple exercises in my routines and I've had pretty good success with them. That said, when I did recently stall on them and as in the FT book ' when you stall, drop and select another exercise' has made the choice a no-brainer.



[quote='Scott Stevenson' pid='16665' dateline='1512779203']

I can't diagnose you, but this looks like patellar tendonitis and what I had for a while a few years back (top of the thigh issue). #2 was from my belt catching / driving into my thighs at the bottom of squatting movements. I moved my belt up my waist and it was fixed. /quote]


I always wear a belt on by lower body exercises so I'll see if this might be the cause! - Thanks



[quote='Scott Stevenson' pid='16665' dateline='1512779203']

Do you stretches after training the muscle group you're stretching. This will create a metabolic stress effect you're not getting from doing them after the muscle is recovered, whereas doing the stretches when "cold" means the connective tissue is less pliable (lower temperature) so you've got less potential to increase flexibility (theoretically), but you'll be stretching more along the longitudinal axis of the muscle (series elastic component) and less perpendicular to this axis (under stretch b/c of the edema d/t the pump you've just causes), which would hypothetically stretch the muscle to allow for greater volume. (This 2nd part is a bit iffy, but if you get greater range of motion on the stretch, the when cold, this will pull MORE on the patellar tendon, which isn't happy right now, whereas there probably is no true need for improving flexibility so the focus here should be on metabolic stress.)

If you do an occlusion stretch (without trying to stretch too much but rather focusing on the effort in creating occlusion), you'll get more stimulus from your quads.

STILL - if the stretching causes pain (when warm or cold), i'd NOT try to force a stretch at all.

Stretching doesn't really cause too much pain. I will certainly change things up and ensure I now stretch right after working each body part instead of leaving it until the end of my workout.

[quote='Scott Stevenson' pid='16665' dateline='1512779203']

I'd drop the lunges and split squats (if you're alternating legs as with a lunge) for now and stick with things like leg extension, sissy squat, somersault squats and smith sissy hack squats.

Done!

[Scott Stevenson]

Scott,

Thanks for your advice, I appreciate it!!

I think I do end up training harder on my leg pump sets purely because of the total load I'm still using. Probably the best analogy I can think of is that it appears I've turned what is supposed to be a Leg Pump day into a still very heavy - Higher Rep Leg day

In that case my reference to doing 'Windowmaker' sets is incorrect....but they feel like they are! My reps are continuous, deep and as full range as possible without locking out or stopping at all until reaching failure.

Got it!

Dead right, I'll make the change!

As mentioned above, my reps are discontinuous but I think my overall loading on leg exercises is probably too heavy. Again, purely because I am trying to achieve failure within the15 - 25 rep range so I think to counter this I really need to decrease the weight's I use on leg movements and increase my reps to 30 - 50 to failure?

So, I think I'm covering all of the above with this:

You're just doing a straight set for Pump sets, which is one way to do them.

However, the purpose here is metabolic stress, not loading (which you note you're doing). You can make this shift in the nature of the stress by doing a few things:

Slow the reps down.
Do 1 ½ reps: Full ROM rep plus ½ ROM rep in whatever portion of the full ROM matches the exercise to keep good tension

Do reverse 21's
5's into the hole.

If you happen to have a unilateral knee extension or even unilateral leg press, try these: https://www.instagram.com/p/BFAJMjVzZfC/...e_training

Some other variation on the above (utilizing partial reps) that you come up with on that day.


-S

[BGD]

So, I think I'm covering all of the above with this:

You're just doing a straight set for Pump sets, which is one way to do them.

However, the purpose here is metabolic stress, not loading (which you note you're doing). You can make this shift in the nature of the stress by doing a few things:

Slow the reps down.
Do 1 ½ reps: Full ROM rep plus ½ ROM rep in whatever portion of the full ROM matches the exercise to keep good tension

Do reverse 21's
5's into the hole.

If you happen to have a unilateral knee extension or even unilateral leg press, try these: https://www.instagram.com/p/BFAJMjVzZfC/...e_training

Some other variation on the above (utilizing partial reps) that you come up with on that day.


-S

I've made the changes you recommended, as well as dropping my Lower MR's for a week and my knees are 100% better already. Upper Quads seem to be coming right as well.

Dropped the weight right down and now using a mix of 5's in the hole (had to google and luckily found your demo vid upload showing how to do these) plus using, 21's and also s/slow reps.

Thanks for your expertise and help Scott!!

[Scott Stevenson]

I've made the changes you recommended, as well as dropping my Lower MR's for a week and my knees are 100% better already. Upper Quads seem to be coming right as well.

Dropped the weight right down and now using a mix of 5's in the hole (had to google and luckily found your demo vid upload showing how to do these) plus using, 21's and also s/slow reps.

Thanks for your expertise and help Scott!!

RIGHT ON!!! Thanks for getting back with a follow-up!

-S