to zigzag or not to zigzag

[bicep_grind]

Hey all,

Been dc training probably 8 years now and on/off fortitude for this and last year.

Back on it now...this time taking it slow....i rushed straight to tier 2 and overtrained myself to death and got all girly and depressive about it, lol. Anyway currently at the end of my 2nd blast. I stepped it up to tier 2 at week 3 and 4 but come back down. It just overtrains me I think for how little I'm eating. Trying to keep as lean as a can this year instead of my usual 290lb fat offseason self.

Anyway let's get to it. I'm just wondering if anyone else has run into this problem, particularly with the loading sets for legs which are done zagged.
Now I have horrendous knee issues at the moment and warming them up enough to get my quads activating is sometimes hard work.
However, besides that......I fnd that warming up and cycling through the zig-zag kind of takes me out of the groove/movement pattern when I'm ready to rock the heavy main loading sets.

Eg squats....3 straight warm up sets.
Then move to a close stance leg press, then onto ham curl. Probably alternate these 2 to build the loads up.
Then return to squats for one last warm up....this actually feels really really heavy and my squats feel very bad and grindy. Then tell myself not to be so soft, think myself that last warm up was spot on and load the bar heavier to begin my zigzag. Man it just all feels so bad on the knees.

Sorry that's long winded but I'm trying to describe it best I can. Basically as soon as i move away from the squat during warm ups and return to it, it feels not to warmed up anymore. Does anyone else run into this issue?

Are the zig zag so important? I scanned through the book last night and perhaps missed some thing. It says to do them and how to do them but I couldn't find why?
I think it keeps intensity high but does it compromise the program by not doing them?

Thanks in advance
Matt

[Scott Stevenson]

BG,

If you're doing TIER I, you're only doing 1 set of squats.

I'd simply at yet another warm-up using squats before your first working sets for that exercise. Warming up is doing whatever it takes to warm up, so simply do that.

Zig-zagging is a form or pre-fatiguing and/or adding more focused stimulus and volume to a give muscle group without taxing the nervous system as much doing compound exercises would. You get variety of stimulus, focused (isolation exercise) and/or pre fatiguing depending on how you order the exercises.

-S

[bicep_grind]

BG,

If you're doing TIER I, you're only doing 1 set of squats.

I'd simply at yet another warm-up using squats before your first working sets for that exercise. Warming up is doing whatever it takes to warm up, so simply do that.

Zig-zagging is a form or pre-fatiguing and/or adding more focused stimulus and volume to a give muscle group without taxing the nervous system as much doing compound exercises would. You get variety of stimulus, focused (isolation exercise) and/or pre fatiguing depending on how you order the exercises.

-S

Thanks for answering Scott, see I told you id join up :-p
I know tier 1 is just 1 set of squats, 1 quad and a ham exercise. I just mean in the warming up process, when I move from the squat and warm up the other stuff and then return to the squat, I seem to of been pulled out of my groove for them.

I think the root of my knee problem is this bar path I seem to develop once and a while, plus I notice from a back shot my inner ankles collapse but still with knees following toes flared out if That makes sense....so all that adds pressure on my inner knee joint.

It's an issue I'm trying to correct currently. I just wanna feel my damn quads when I squat, not my knees goddamn it lol.

Matt

[Scott Stevenson]

Thanks for answering Scott, see I told you id join up :-p
I know tier 1 is just 1 set of squats, 1 quad and a ham exercise. I just mean in the warming up process, when I move from the squat and warm up the other stuff and then return to the squat, I seem to of been pulled out of my groove for them.

Yes, right, that's why I wrote:

"I'd simply [add] yet another warm-up using squats before your first working sets for that exercise. Warming up is doing whatever it takes to warm up, so simply do that."

I think the root of my knee problem is this bar path I seem to develop once and a while, plus I notice from a back shot my inner ankles collapse but still with knees following toes flared out if That makes sense....so all that adds pressure on my inner knee joint.

It's an issue I'm trying to correct currently. I just wanna feel my damn quads when I squat, not my knees goddamn it lol.

Matt

Or you could just not squat if that exercise doesn't work for you from a bodybuilding standpoint. (That's the case for me. I gave it over a decade of trial and error and now really only squat using a smith machine.)

-S

[bicep_grind]

Yes, right, that's why I wrote:

"I'd simply [add] yet another warm-up using squats before your first working sets for that exercise. Warming up is doing whatever it takes to warm up, so simply do that."


Or you could just not squat if that exercise doesn't work for you from a bodybuilding standpoint. (That's the case for me. I gave it over a decade of trial and error and now really only squat using a smith machine.)

-S

Damn smith machines, I hate squatting on them...even though their in my rotation now lol.
The knees are feeling good this week now I'm cruising.
I'll return and maybe try some low bar squats as a trial and error thing. We have a pit shark belt squat in my gym, that thing is an incredible squat alternative

[Scott Stevenson]

Damn smith machines, I hate squatting on them...even though their in my rotation now lol.
The knees are feeling good this week now I'm cruising.
I'll return and maybe try some low bar squats as a trial and error thing. We have a pit shark belt squat in my gym, that thing is an incredible squat alternative

BG,

I looked back and found that we had an exchange in 2013 on intense muscle about your knee pain when / from squatting.

I guess the question is - if the smith machine allowed your legs to improve and you to position yourself so you don't have knee pain (which WILL eventually catch up to you), would you hate it so much?...

There are a lot of alternative to back squatting - it's really a great exercise for many folks but in another sense (and this both good and bad) kind of primitive (in a good and bad way), when we have so many other implements to target the legs.

If you were training to build your biceps and found that a preacher curl caused you to have tendonitis - and this happens for YEARS on end - would you just keep banging away at it or maybe try something else?... In other words, why are you so enamored with the BB back squat?... (That's mainly a rhetorical question... )

-S

[bicep_grind]

BG,

I looked back and found that we had an exchange in 2013 on intense muscle about your knee pain when / from squatting.

I guess the question is - if the smith machine allowed your legs to improve and you to position yourself so you don't have knee pain (which WILL eventually catch up to you), would you hate it so much?...

There are a lot of alternative to back squatting - it's really a great exercise for many folks but in another sense (and this both good and bad) kind of primitive (in a good and bad way), when we have so many other implements to target the legs.

If you were training to build your biceps and found that a preacher curl caused you to have tendonitis - and this happens for YEARS on end - would you just keep banging away at it or maybe try something else?... In other words, why are you so enamored with the BB back squat?... (That's mainly a rhetorical question... )

-S

I am actually slowly filtering out all these exercises that either don't work for me or cause pain when gets heavy.
The problem in many cases is an exercise/machine feels great at 1st but then as you progress on with it over time it maybe doesn't feel as good or starts causing tendon flair ups. By the time your feeling this it's usually too late and your stuck with a nagging injury for a while.

Have you been there before dude? Where an exercise starts off all good and ends up with eventual sets feeling like your on a knifes edge with it? Lol where risk to benefit ratio is blown outta proportion? Especially for the needs of bodybuilding. I'm very guilty of this, but now I'm a little older and definitely had a few minor set backs I feel I'm smarter with my training. If something twangs/pops or grinds I now discontinue haha.

Matt

[Scott Stevenson]

I am actually slowly filtering out all these exercises that either don't work for me or cause pain when gets heavy.
The problem in many cases is an exercise/machine feels great at 1st but then as you progress on with it over time it maybe doesn't feel as good or starts causing tendon flair ups. By the time your feeling this it's usually too late and your stuck with a nagging injury for a while.

Have you been there before dude? Where an exercise starts off all good and ends up with eventual sets feeling like your on a knifes edge with it? Lol where risk to benefit ratio is blown outta proportion? Especially for the needs of bodybuilding. I'm very guilty of this, but now I'm a little older and definitely had a few minor set backs I feel I'm smarter with my training. If something twangs/pops or grinds I now discontinue haha.

Matt

Hey Matt,

Yeah, I've been there a few times...

https://www.elitefts.com/education/train...on-warrior

I had to try 5 exercises on a Muscle Round day just a couple weeks ago to find the right one.

Any by the right one, I mean one where I feel like I can just friggin' go to town on it, full force, without nagging thoughts in the back of my mind.

I'd sort of disagree with your generalization in the first paragraph above. I think if you're paying close attention when warming up, that you can indeed figure out that an exercise is becoming problematic before it's too late. (I've been doing this for decades now... LOL I've been training for over 30yr, and pretty much always been a knucklehead in the gym...)

You might try this - SAFELY. (The below is a kind of diagnostic, not a war-up.)

When you go to a new exercise (one that you suspect might be an issue), or a the start of our workout, don't do anything special to warm-up as far as stretching, walking on the treadmill, etc. Just go in an do an UNLOADED (or as close to that as you can) version of the movement and see where it hurts (and watch how you accommodate to try to do the movement.)

If it were a day you'd be squatting, just go into the gym, head to the squat rack and squat down (not even with a bar on your back) and see how that feels. Can you imagine your back being tight, your knees hurting, etc?...

Those would give you some indication of trouble spots to pay attention to, before, during and after doing that exercise.

If it were a pressing movement, you could use an unloaded bar and do the above. NOTHING heavy or crazy - just the movement itself to see where the niggles are.

-S

[bicep_grind]

Hey Matt,

Yeah, I've been there a few times...

https://www.elitefts.com/education/train...on-warrior

I had to try 5 exercises on a Muscle Round day just a couple weeks ago to find the right one.

Any by the right one, I mean one where I feel like I can just friggin' go to town on it, full force, without nagging thoughts in the back of my mind.

I'd sort of disagree with your generalization in the first paragraph above. I think if you're paying close attention when warming up, that you can indeed figure out that an exercise is becoming problematic before it's too late. (I've been doing this for decades now... LOL I've been training for over 30yr, and pretty much always been a knucklehead in the gym...)

You might try this - SAFELY. (The below is a kind of diagnostic, not a war-up.)

When you go to a new exercise (one that you suspect might be an issue), or a the start of our workout, don't do anything special to warm-up as far as stretching, walking on the treadmill, etc. Just go in an do an UNLOADED (or as close to that as you can) version of the movement and see where it hurts (and watch how you accommodate to try to do the movement.)

If it were a day you'd be squatting, just go into the gym, head to the squat rack and squat down (not even with a bar on your back) and see how that feels. Can you imagine your back being tight, your knees hurting, etc?...

Those would give you some indication of trouble spots to pay attention to, before, during and after doing that exercise.

If it were a pressing movement, you could use an unloaded bar and do the above. NOTHING heavy or crazy - just the movement itself to see where the niggles are.

-S

Hey Scott thanks for all the advice. I always appreciate any training tips. My family runs a Gym. My dad won the 2011 Mr universe over 50's and the Britain in every class and my Mum won every British title I think there is. My dad is 40 years in the game and my mum is 35 years. They retired only a few years ago...so there is alot of experience at my doorstep.
Unfortunately non of us see eye to eye regarding, diet or training techniques haha. "my way or the highway" sort of thing. Jeez man you should of seen their faces when I was skiploading during prep.

I probably do need to be way more thorough with warm ups. The cruise is really healing me up nicely.
One thing I have noticed, rest days my hunger is insane, I know i should be feeding this Hunger but I'm already fatter than I want to be this offseason lol.

Matt

[Scott Stevenson]

Hey Scott thanks for all the advice. I always appreciate any training tips. My family runs a Gym. My dad won the 2011 Mr universe over 50's and the Britain in every class and my Mum won every British title I think there is. My dad is 40 years in the game and my mum is 35 years. They retired only a few years ago...so there is alot of experience at my doorstep.
Unfortunately non of us see eye to eye regarding, diet or training techniques haha. "my way or the highway" sort of thing. Jeez man you should of seen their faces when I was skiploading during prep.

I probably do need to be way more thorough with warm ups. The cruise is really healing me up nicely.
One thing I have noticed, rest days my hunger is insane, I know i should be feeding this Hunger but I'm already fatter than I want to be this offseason lol.

Matt

Matt,

I'm wondering if you have some pressure to squat there in the gym?...

-S