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[hicksy_ian]

Lifetime Natural currently 33 years of age living in the U.K. I was using MD training prior to switching to DC about 7 months ago, i've made more progress muscle wise on DC in the past 7 months than i have from the previous 3 years of "volume based" training. I started reading about Athur Jones/Elington Darden prior to starting DC as i'd never monitored any kind of failure points or trained to what I believe is real failure.

I soaked up all the info on intensemuscle and read everything from Scott and Dante. The reason for switching to FT is because I started to feel really rundown and didn't really enjoy going to the gym on DC anymore....lack of pump from chasing the weight led to a lack of mind muscle connection as i was constantly chasing the logbook. However, i'm more concerned with muscular gain than enjoyment in the gym so i'm hoping that because Scott has been down the same route with DC that FT will plug the holes that DC is missing (although I can't recommend it highly enough) in terms of using higher rep pump style work and the CNS management caused by multiple failure points every workout.

I'm a week into my first blast after a deload from DC and am starting with tier 1. I have some initial thoughts on how I can alter the program to fit my needs (You haven't even started why are you thinking about altering!?) relating to Arms and how well they responded to rest pause on DC but also managing CNS. My initial thoughts are that I might end up changing one of the muscle rounds for triceps to a rest pause set dc style, and possibly one of the biceps but i'm going to give it a couple of weeks AS IS before doing any kind of tinkering.

[Scott Stevenson]

Lifetime Natural currently 33 years of age living in the U.K. I was using MD training prior to switching to DC about 7 months ago, i've made more progress muscle wise on DC in the past 7 months than i have from the previous 3 years of "volume based" training. I started reading about Athur Jones/Elington Darden prior to starting DC as i'd never monitored any kind of failure points or trained to what I believe is real failure.

I soaked up all the info on intensemuscle and read everything from Scott and Dante. The reason for switching to FT is because I started to feel really rundown and didn't really enjoy going to the gym on DC anymore....lack of pump from chasing the weight led to a lack of mind muscle connection as i was constantly chasing the logbook. However, i'm more concerned with muscular gain than enjoyment in the gym so i'm hoping that because Scott has been down the same route with DC that FT will plug the holes that DC is missing (although I can't recommend it highly enough) in terms of using higher rep pump style work and the CNS management caused by multiple failure points every workout.

I'm a week into my first blast after a deload from DC and am starting with tier 1. I have some initial thoughts on how I can alter the program to fit my needs (You haven't even started why are you thinking about altering!?) relating to Arms and how well they responded to rest pause on DC but also managing CNS. My initial thoughts are that I might end up changing one of the muscle rounds for triceps to a rest pause set dc style, and possibly one of the biceps but i'm going to give it a couple of weeks AS IS before doing any kind of tinkering.

Welcome, Ian!

Do you think a couple weeks is long enough to give FT a fair shot in terms of arm growth?... (FYI, run a search on this topic and check the stickied FAQ in the FT forum for more on this topic. )

-S

[hicksy_ian]

Welcome, Ian!

Do you think a couple weeks is long enough to give FT a fair shot in terms of arm growth?... (FYI, run a search on this topic and check the stickied FAQ in the FT forum for more on this topic. )

-S

Thanks Scott!

That's a fair point Scott and one I expected . My reasoning is I was making superb progress using rest pause (specifically for tricep mass) to the degree that they appeared to be growing after every workout. So I'm a little hesitant to drop a technique that's working so well if I can fit it in and not tax the CNS (with it being a relatively small muscle group in comparison with back for example).

On a related note, I remember seeing a study fairly recently where they compared triple drop sets (with three failure points) to three single sets with three failure points and the triple drop set group resulted in something like 50% more hypertrophy. I remember people putting this down to time under tension but i'm convinced that it's more to do with intensity.

E.g Having so many failure points in such a short space of time results in knocking off the slow twitch fibres (a simplification i know) and recruiting the fast twitch the closer to each failure point the trainee gets. I believe this is why DC's rest pause method is so damn effective and why it seems to build thick, dense looking muscle. I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on this, either relating to FT or my pseudo-science theory behind rest pause?

I'd really like to integrate some kind of dropset/rest pause into FT..because it seems so damn effective and i'm the kind of guy who hates the thought that he's not doing something optimally hypertrophy wise. I'd also be really interested in learning the specifics of how you developed FT, in regards to did you start out with DC two way split and then find that you had recovered by day 3 so started adding in pump work to increase protein synthesis? Or how/why you originally had the rest pause setup and why you decided to get rid of it as a mainstay technique etc. Are there any of your earlier podcasts which covers this as I think it would be a fascinating subject to hear of the process you went through.

Apologies for the bombardment of questions.

[Scott Stevenson]

Thanks Scott!

That's a fair point Scott and one I expected . My reasoning is I was making superb progress using rest pause (specifically for tricep mass) to the degree that they appeared to be growing after every workout. So I'm a little hesitant to drop a technique that's working so well if I can fit it in and not tax the CNS (with it being a relatively small muscle group in comparison with back for example).

That's a great point - if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

On a related note, I remember seeing a study fairly recently where they compared triple drop sets (with three failure points) to three single sets with three failure points and the triple drop set group resulted in something like 50% more hypertrophy. I remember people putting this down to time under tension but i'm convinced that it's more to do with intensity.

Probably this study: 1. Fink J, Schoenfeld BJ, Kikuchi N, and Nakazato K. Effects of drop set resistance training on acute stress indicators and long-term muscle hypertrophy and strength. J Sports Med Phys Fitness 2017.

In that study, the training load (reps x load) was identical for the drop sets vs. straight sets groups.

Intensity as defined by load (%1RM was higher in the straight set group), but RPE (equivalent of bro-science "intensity") was higher after the drop set

E.g Having so many failure points in such a short space of time results in knocking off the slow twitch fibres (a simplification i know) and recruiting the fast twitch the closer to each failure point the trainee gets. I believe this is why DC's rest pause method is so damn effective and why it seems to build thick, dense looking muscle. I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on this, either relating to FT or my pseudo-science theory behind rest pause?

I don't know what you mean by "knocking off" the "slow twitch" fibers (I put slow twitch in quotes b/c no one is measuring individual twitch speed in most human studies unless they're using very specialized techniques. I have a youtube video explaining all of that), but pretty much every intensification technique (forced reps, forced negatives, drop sets, rest-pause / cluster sets, etc.) is in some way an attempt to perform more repetitions when the high threshold (type II) fibers are activated.

[When I'm asked for my "thoughts" on something as broad as this I kind of have to bow out, as I could type for hours on this topic...]

I

'd really like to integrate some kind of dropset/rest pause into FT..because it seems so damn effective and i'm the kind of guy who hates the thought that he's not doing something optimally hypertrophy wise. I'd also be really interested in learning the specifics of how you developed FT, in regards to did you start out with DC two way split and then find that you had recovered by day 3 so started adding in pump work to increase protein synthesis? Or how/why you originally had the rest pause setup and why you decided to get rid of it as a mainstay technique etc. Are there any of your earlier podcasts which covers this as I think it would be a fascinating subject to hear of the process you went through.

GO for it, man. If you think you already know without doing Muscle Rounds that it's not optimal, in conjunction with Pump set for arms, then more power to you!!! (I would guess you're being a bit myopic here in that the overall context in which arm training occurs in FT is different than in DC, so on whatever days you'd be doing RP or drop sets you'd be in a different state of recovery compared to when doing DC...)

I trained DC for nearly a decade and have gone into this over I can't count how many different places now. I can't remember for sure, but a good podcast.

I think this was a good one: #13 Scott Stevenson, PhD - DC training and developing fortitude; Muscle hypertrophy and hyperplasia

And this one: #13 Scott Stevenson, PhD - DC training and developing fortitude; Muscle hypertrophy and hyperplasia

And this was a very good one, too: #13 Scott Stevenson, PhD - DC training and developing fortitude; Muscle hypertrophy and hyperplasia


I do explain - and have here on the board extensively - why I only include one failure point in a FT MR... vs. 3 failure points (plus the pulsing negative at the end) in a DC style RP set.

Apologies for the bombardment of questions.

No problem! Probably best to start a new thread with new questions as these responses will get buried here in this Intro thread.

-S

[hicksy_ian]

Probably this study: 1. Fink J, Schoenfeld BJ, Kikuchi N, and Nakazato K. Effects of drop set resistance training on acute stress indicators and long-term muscle hypertrophy and strength. J Sports Med Phys Fitness 2017.

In that study, the training load (reps x load) was identical for the drop sets vs. straight sets groups.

Intensity as defined by load (%1RM was higher in the straight set group), but RPE (equivalent of bro-science "intensity") was higher after the drop set

That's the one!

[When I'm asked for my "thoughts" on something as broad as this I kind of have to bow out, as I could type for hours on this topic...]


GO for it, man. If you think you already know without doing Muscle Rounds that it's not optimal, in conjunction with Pump set for arms, then more power to you!!! (I would guess you're being a bit myopic here in that the overall context in which arm training occurs in FT is different than in DC, so on whatever days you'd be doing RP or drop sets you'd be in a different state of recovery compared to when doing DC...)

That's a fair point Scott I guess I need to reevaluate my thinking. I was definitely not meaning to suggest MR's weren't optimal, just wondering about changing the one out.

Apologies, if there's one thing i've learnt from DC it's to do the program as it's written.

I trained DC for nearly a decade and have gone into this over I can't count how many different places now. I can't remember for sure, but a good podcast.

I think this was a good one: #13 Scott Stevenson, PhD - DC training and developing fortitude; Muscle hypertrophy and hyperplasia

And this one: #13 Scott Stevenson, PhD - DC training and developing fortitude; Muscle hypertrophy and hyperplasia

And this was a very good one, too: #13 Scott Stevenson, PhD - DC training and developing fortitude; Muscle hypertrophy and hyperplasia


I do explain - and have here on the board extensively - why I only include one failure point in a FT MR... vs. 3 failure points (plus the pulsing negative at the end) in a DC style RP set.

Thank you for taking the time to find those links and reply to my inane questions. I've recently started listening to your podcasts on my semi-fasted walks first thing in the morning so i'll start on these right away! I'll try and use the search function more thoroughly in future

I'm just coming to the end of my second week on Tier 1 (having used Tier 2 for chest and back pump sets in the second week). I'm still experimenting with the best exercises for pump/MR's. I tried T-bar rows for MR and soon realised by lower back and legs were giving out before my back, so that'll be one for the loading sets.

[Scott Stevenson]

That's the one!


That's a fair point Scott I guess I need to reevaluate my thinking. I was definitely not meaning to suggest MR's weren't optimal, just wondering about changing the one out.

It's very possible that MR's are NOT optimal for you - not arguing that the are in all cases. (I do like to suggest that folks try things out methodically so that variables can be isolated in hopes of finding an optimal strategy.)

Apologies, if there's one thing i've learnt from DC it's to do the program as it's written.

I try not to come across as a FT nazi in that regard - things got a bit out of hand with that and DC back over on intensemuscle.

It just makes sense, as I have noted a ton of times, to do the same program as so many have so everyone's got the same basis of comparison and shared experience.

Thank you for taking the time to find those links and reply to my inane questions. I've recently started listening to your podcasts on my semi-fasted walks first thing in the morning so i'll start on these right away! I'll try and use the search function more thoroughly in future

Those were good questions! (So good, they could be posted in a separate threads, and thus be easier to find by others. )

I'm just coming to the end of my second week on Tier 1 (having used Tier 2 for chest and back pump sets in the second week). I'm still experimenting with the best exercises for pump/MR's. I tried T-bar rows for MR and soon realised by lower back and legs were giving out before my back, so that'll be one for the loading sets.

Right on.

Check out the FAQ sticky in the FT forum for the strategy to bring up one's arms. (This one has been asked just a few times... )

-S

[CoachGCasas]

So, I have already been on here for a few weeks and just now realized I never introduced myself to the forum..... To Dr. Scott I am probably known as the hooked on phonics learner ha! Anyways, my name is Geno Casas I am a 28 year old strength coach who trains lifestyle, bikini, and football clients. Honestly, I got into this because I started training a bikini competitor trying to obtain her pro card, and I got tired of people asking me why I am so small if I train these kinds of clients.... Luckily I was blessed enough to fall upon this book and Forum! Look forward to getting to know everyone better!

[Scott Stevenson]

So, I have already been on here for a few weeks and just now realized I never introduced myself to the forum..... To Dr. Scott I am probably known as the hooked on phonics learner ha! Anyways, my name is Geno Casas I am a 28 year old strength coach who trains lifestyle, bikini, and football clients. Honestly, I got into this because I started training a bikini competitor trying to obtain her pro card, and I got tired of people asking me why I am so small if I train these kinds of clients.... Luckily I was blessed enough to fall upon this book and Forum! Look forward to getting to know everyone better!

Welcome Geno!

(I hope you find some other motivation outside of folks' criticism, but I hear what you're saying. I guess you could also respond by telling them you were once a Bikini competitor and see what they say. )

-S

[aymene]

Hello, my name is Aymene and I'm 16 years old and come from a gymnastic background. I got introduced to fortitude training by John Meadows after he posted some videos training with Scott. I've read the fortitude training book and feel like i have the understand it enough to start out. I plan on starting my first basic cycle at volume one next week. I have two questions. First question: I'm part of my high school gymnastic team and although most of the most we do is skill training (handstands,lsits etc) our coach does implement some sub-maximal training every now and then (5 reps left in the tank). From my experience it does not affect recovery but should I do anything different with fortitude programming? Second question: What are your opinions on Rack pulls above the knee. I have a friend who does them and says his trap size comes from that lift. I was wondering if using them for muscle rounds would be a good idea. Thank you

[Scott Stevenson]

Hello, my name is Aymene and I'm 16 years old and come from a gymnastic background. I got introduced to fortitude training by John Meadows after he posted some videos training with Scott. I've read the fortitude training book and feel like i have the understand it enough to start out. I plan on starting my first basic cycle at volume one next week. I have two questions. First question: I'm part of my high school gymnastic team and although most of the most we do is skill training (handstands,lsits etc) our coach does implement some sub-maximal training every now and then (5 reps left in the tank). From my experience it does not affect recovery but should I do anything different with fortitude programming? Second question: What are your opinions on Rack pulls above the knee. I have a friend who does them and says his trap size comes from that lift. I was wondering if using them for muscle rounds would be a good idea. Thank you

Welcome Aymene!

A few things to get you oriented here.

Best to pick a forum and post your question there. This is a thread just for introductions.

Start on the board for answers to your questions - as a large majority of FT-related questions have already been addressed at some point.

IMO, you should check with your gymanastics coach regarding training. Fortitude Training is designed for someone who has made bodybuilding the essentially the entirely his / her athletic pursuits. I would NOT recommend you try to do FT while doing gymnastics training. While you might call those skill training, they still require substantial muscular exertion. You'd be best served as a gymnast finding a way to weight train that fits in, with and around your gymnastics training (to make you a better gymnast). You could use principles in FT, but I build the weight training based on the gymnastics training, rather than trying to simply superimpose FT on what your'e already doing. Again, your coach should run the show here.

Rack deads from just above the knee can be a great back builder (traps included), for many guys. Rack deads are NOT something I recommend for MR's, d/t low back fatigue and risk of injury coming from the low back being the "breaking point" when pushing the MR to a failure point. (This one, for instance, has been mentioned here on the board a few times now.)

Again, welcome!

-S