FT Questions....

[Scott Stevenson]

Sorry to ask if it's already been asked but I wanted to throw this out there.

Is there any validity to only rotating between 2 exercise groupings for a bodypart if the movements are really feeling like they're working well and progressing nicely? I've got 3 1/2 weeks left in this blast before I move (and change gym) and I'm almost certain that I can keep progressing well on just 2 movements for my lower body for this blast.
Obviously it's a valid enough approach, but that's not the point - I mean, is it FT approved? From my s&c background we would rotate exercises fairly frequently but I know the whole point behind the Loading Sets on FT is to just keep progressing as long as you can, not as fast as you can. So if I need to be patient and just hit my RFESS and Smith Squats every 3 weeks I will.

Hey Bud!

I think by "validity" you're asking if it's a "valid," meaning potentially effective approach to rotate between two vs. three exercise groupings (when doing FT).

Firstly, I'm for whatever works best for an individual.

The three exercise group (e.g., call them A, B and C) rotation is an empirically derived one that works well for intermediate and advanced guys generally for the following reasons:

• Reduces the contribution of "acute" improvement in exercise execution from (skill acquisition, neural adaptations, etc.) to performance improvements (more weight a/o more reps). After 3 weeks, you're not going to forget how to do the exercise, but if, for example, you performed the same exercise (same set type) every week, you could improve the same amount, session by session or even MORE so when obviously, all other things being equal, your'e gaining more size over 3 weeks vs 1 week. THUS, the gains in reps / weight are more a function of muscle mass.

• Prevents to some degree niggles (as known in the UK) or repetitive wear / use injuries inflammation that can come from doing the same movements regularly.

• Keeps things nicely fresh psychologically in that you might not even remember what you previously did or its not haunting you at least if doing the same exercises (as FT loading sets) every 3 weeks.

• Includes decent variety which is important for full muscular development IMO, and does this in interaction with other exercises that would be used for the same muscle groups during a given week. (The combo's would be very different, meaning a different sequence of activation patterns, fatigue patterns, damage patterns, etc. week by week but will still the log book data to stick to a progressive overload regime b/c there is indeed a repeating pattern. )


This is the kind of rotation that I've found generally works better, but some can and DO like to so the same grouping week in and week out or alternating between two groupings, e.g., for the reason you note above.

In your case, practically speaking, it really doesn't matter much b/c you'll be off to anther gym and who knows what in terms of other training (Jiu Jitsu, etc.) so these last few weeks where you are really won't matter much in the long haul.

You might also thinks about why third grouping isn't one you want to repeat: Are you plateauing there. are these not good exercise for you / to target your physique, can you perhaps get better at them, and / or change the order of exercises (how you zig zag them)?...

-S

[tjjankowski]

Hey Bud!

I think by "validity" you're asking if it's a "valid," meaning potentially effective approach to rotate between two vs. three exercise groupings (when doing FT).

Firstly, I'm for whatever works best for an individual.

The three exercise group (e.g., call them A, B and C) rotation is an empirically derived one that works well for intermediate and advanced guys generally for the following reasons:

• Reduces the contribution of "acute" improvement in exercise execution from (skill acquisition, neural adaptations, etc.) to performance improvements (more weight a/o more reps). After 3 weeks, you're not going to forget how to do the exercise, but if, for example, you performed the same exercise (same set type) every week, you could improve the same amount, session by session or even MORE so when obviously, all other things being equal, your'e gaining more size over 3 weeks vs 1 week. THUS, the gains in reps / weight are more a function of muscle mass.

• Prevents to some degree niggles (as known in the UK) or repetitive wear / use injuries inflammation that can come from doing the same movements regularly.

• Keeps things nicely fresh psychologically in that you might not even remember what you previously did or its not haunting you at least if doing the same exercises (as FT loading sets) every 3 weeks.

• Includes decent variety which is important for full muscular development IMO, and does this in interaction with other exercises that would be used for the same muscle groups during a given week. (The combo's would be very different, meaning a different sequence of activation patterns, fatigue patterns, damage patterns, etc. week by week but will still the log book data to stick to a progressive overload regime b/c there is indeed a repeating pattern. )


This is the kind of rotation that I've found generally works better, but some can and DO like to so the same grouping week in and week out or alternating between two groupings, e.g., for the reason you note above.

In your case, practically speaking, it really doesn't matter much b/c you'll be off to anther gym and who knows what in terms of other training (Jiu Jitsu, etc.) so these last few weeks where you are really won't matter much in the long haul.

You might also thinks about why third grouping isn't one you want to repeat: Are you plateauing there. are these not good exercise for you / to target your physique, can you perhaps get better at them, and / or change the order of exercises (how you zig zag them)?...

-S

Thanks Scott
I think that's a fantastic response, I mean, you did write the book on it, but that's a great rationale for 3 groupings.
With that said, my plan as of now will be to stick to 2 groupings whilst I'm in this current gym, ideally keeping those 2 in my new gym opening up room for a 3 for my 2nd blast!

[Scott Stevenson]

Thanks Scott
I think that's a fantastic response, I mean, you did write the book on it, but that's a great rationale for 3 groupings.
With that said, my plan as of now will be to stick to 2 groupings whilst I'm in this current gym, ideally keeping those 2 in my new gym opening up room for a 3 for my 2nd blast!

You're welcome!

Is there any reason for not wanting to use the third grouping, other than the other two are working really well?...

-S

[tjjankowski]

Because COVID restrictions my gym has strange restrictions in place, it's a strange set up anyway where it's split into two rooms - one room that they call "the cross-training room" has a lot of open space, squat racks, barbells and benches and another thats the "weight room" that has machines, dumbbells, cables, one barbell bench rack and a strange "360 smith machine" type thing.
They've closed the "cross-training room" and taken away all but 6 of the 45lb plates, which aren't enough to challenge even 1 leg on the sled leg press, the machine leg press has a poor ROM and I can do 25+ reps on the whole stack, and to do traditional squats on this 360 smith thing feels awful...
I've managed to work the 360 smith thing and make some decent smith machine squats by keeping it at the back of the rack and I've loaded up Bulgarian Split Squats and work them quite well with single leg knee extension and hamstring work.
As I'm making progress well on these two I just thought I would hammer away at these two rather than awkwardly trying to fashion something else. Then when I get into my 2nd blast I could look into a 3rd grouping that I can also stay consistent with and use for the long-term future (like an actual back squat or sled leg press)

Does that make sense? I am open to being wrong about this if your expertise suggests something different or has any other input

[Scott Stevenson]

Because COVID restrictions my gym has strange restrictions in place, it's a strange set up anyway where it's split into two rooms - one room that they call "the cross-training room" has a lot of open space, squat racks, barbells and benches and another thats the "weight room" that has machines, dumbbells, cables, one barbell bench rack and a strange "360 smith machine" type thing.
They've closed the "cross-training room" and taken away all but 6 of the 45lb plates, which aren't enough to challenge even 1 leg on the sled leg press, the machine leg press has a poor ROM and I can do 25+ reps on the whole stack, and to do traditional squats on this 360 smith thing feels awful...
I've managed to work the 360 smith thing and make some decent smith machine squats by keeping it at the back of the rack and I've loaded up Bulgarian Split Squats and work them quite well with single leg knee extension and hamstring work.
As I'm making progress well on these two I just thought I would hammer away at these two rather than awkwardly trying to fashion something else. Then when I get into my 2nd blast I could look into a 3rd grouping that I can also stay consistent with and use for the long-term future (like an actual back squat or sled leg press)

Does that make sense? I am open to being wrong about this if your expertise suggests something different or has any other input

Yes, it makes sense that your gym (b/c of the above) is poorly equipped and you've not come up with any other exercises that would work well for Thigh Loading sets.

I'm not sure what you're actually doing as far as Compounds and Isolation exercises (or how grouped) for your Thigh Loading sets though.

Either way, it (still) doesn't matter really practically speaking (I think) as you're moving in ~3 weeks and changing gyms so your exercise options will be different and hopefully more varied. (If this is true, I don't follow your statement, "Then when I get into my 2nd blast I could look into a 3rd grouping..." as you would have hopefully be able to easily come up with 3+ groupings.)

-S

[tjjankowski]

Yes, it makes sense that your gym (b/c of the above) is poorly equipped and you've not come up with any other exercises that would work well for Thigh Loading sets.

I'm not sure what you're actually doing as far as Compounds and Isolation exercises (or how grouped) for your Thigh Loading sets though.

Either way, it (still) doesn't matter really practically speaking (I think) as you're moving in ~3 weeks and changing gyms so your exercise options will be different and hopefully more varied. (If this is true, I don't follow your statement, "Then when I get into my 2nd blast I could look into a 3rd grouping..." as you would have hopefully be able to easily come up with 3+ groupings.)

-S

So these are the two groupings I do.

1 -
Smith Squat 205x11
Sissy Squat bw x 18
Smith Squat 205 x 9
Smith RDL 225 x 11

2 -
RFE Split Squat 60 x 12
SL Leg Extension 60 x 11
RFE Split Squat 60 x 10
RFE DB Romanian Deadlifts 60 x 11
(I do on left leg take a few minutes and repeat on the right leg)

To clarify, because I feel like I can repeat these 2 groupings in any gym (as they should have dumbbells and a smith machine, I think that means I can just add a 3rd grouping. The load may alter slightly (as different smith machines are different etc) but overall I would like to keep these 2 groupings if I can...

I tried adding in single leg work with the muscle rounds, I just dont think I can get the intensity/stimulus up on loading sets, balance issues etc... I'm happy to weight for a good barbell back squat in the new gym.

Again, open for your criticism Dr Scott, I know FT is your baby and I feel like I'm mis-treating it in front of you... I hope this isn't the case

[Scott Stevenson]

So these are the two groupings I do.

1 -
Smith Squat 205x11
Sissy Squat bw x 18
Smith Squat 205 x 9
Smith RDL 225 x 11

2 -
RFE Split Squat 60 x 12
SL Leg Extension 60 x 11
RFE Split Squat 60 x 10
RFE DB Romanian Deadlifts 60 x 11
(I do on left leg take a few minutes and repeat on the right leg)

To clarify, because I feel like I can repeat these 2 groupings in any gym (as they should have dumbbells and a smith machine, I think that means I can just add a 3rd grouping. The load may alter slightly (as different smith machines are different etc) but overall I would like to keep these 2 groupings if I can...

Yes, I understand why you're not doing a third grouping right now, but I don't know why it's an issue. You'll not be at that gym in just a few weeks.

Similarly, there's no need (from my perspective) to talk about things you would be eating in a few weeks from now only if you lived somewhere other than where will be living.

You can choose whatever groupings you like, as many as you want. I say go for it!

I tried adding in single leg work with the muscle rounds, I just dont think I can get the intensity/stimulus up on loading sets, balance issues etc... I'm happy to weight for a good barbell back squat in the new gym.

I must not be following: If you can't "get the intensity/stimulus up on loading sets" doing single leg work, why do you want to keep the single leg exercises you have in grouping #2?...

Again, open for your criticism Dr Scott, I know FT is your baby and I feel like I'm mis-treating it in front of you... I hope this isn't the case

Bummer that you feel that way.

Here's some food for thought.

You're exceeding the rep range for Loading sets (per the book) if you're doing 18 reps. You can hold a plate on your chest to add load.

If you want to do those groupings you can, but it sounds to me like they are NOT what you'd ideally be doing in a normally equipped gym. But if you have decided you like them and can progress, that's perfect. (My point here is to no resign yourself to a pseudo-progressive overload scheme with exercises (where the machines change so you've got a least one discontinuity in tracking progression) if you have other exercises available that you'd prefer overall.

Front squats on a smith are an option for a compound thigh exercise. A belt squat can also be done with a purely vertical (90˚ up and down) smith if you have dip belt or and actual hip squat belt you trust. 302 Found makes a great one.

You can also do smith sissy hacks and somersault squats on a smith (search the site for those), as quad isolation exercises.

-S

[tjjankowski]

Yes, I understand why you're not doing a third grouping right now, but I don't know why it's an issue. You'll not be at that gym in just a few weeks.

Similarly, there's no need (from my perspective) to talk about things you would be eating in a few weeks from now only if you lived somewhere other than where will be living.

You can choose whatever groupings you like, as many as you want. I say go for it!

Yea, I think that was my original question was about the 2-3 groupings, clearly the idea is to keep the same ones in rotation as long as possible, but what I've not personally wrapped my head around (until now) is that, for me, it isn't possible, or even worth the mental masturbation as I'll not be 100% sure on the gym I'll choose in DR (I have obviously scoped out a few options that all seem pretty suitable though)

I think I was also seeking permission to do the 2 groupings when as you say, it's not really needed - my situation is unique and problematic so "perfect" just doesnt exist!

I must not be following: If you can't "get the intensity/stimulus up on loading sets" doing single leg work, why do you want to keep the single leg exercises you have in grouping #2?...

Yea I did a terrible job explaining myself again, I was referring to single leg / pistol squat-type where balance becomes an issue, I've really liked keeping my rear foot on the bench as that helps the stability. But yea, I explained that poorly.

Here's some food for thought.

You're exceeding the rep range for Loading sets (per the book) if you're doing 18 reps. You can hold a plate on your chest to add load.

If you want to do those groupings you can, but it sounds to me like they are NOT what you'd ideally be doing in a normally equipped gym. But if you have decided you like them and can progress, that's perfect. (My point here is to no resign yourself to a pseudo-progressive overload scheme with exercises (where the machines change so you've got a least one discontinuity in tracking progression) if you have other exercises available that you'd prefer overall.

Front squats on a smith are an option for a compound thigh exercise. A belt squat can also be done with a purely vertical (90˚ up and down) smith if you have dip belt or and actual hip squat belt you trust. 302 Found makes a great one.

You can also do smith sissy hacks and somersault squats on a smith (search the site for those), as quad isolation exercises.

-S

Front squats are in for Saturday's MR day and Smith sissy hacks too! Thanks for the feedback.
The belt would've been a good variation (and was one I was originally scoping) but the gym took that away too... If I wasn't traveling a bunch I'd invest in a belt of some sort.

Overall though, you're 100% right and whilst it would be great to keep the same/similar exercises in varying gyms, from a loading progression it just wouldn't make sense to overthink it!

Much love to you and thank you for your patience with me

[Scott Stevenson]

Yea, I think that was my original question was about the 2-3 groupings, clearly the idea is to keep the same ones in rotation as long as possible, but what I've not personally wrapped my head around (until now) is that, for me, it isn't possible, or even worth the mental masturbation as I'll not be 100% sure on the gym I'll choose in DR (I have obviously scoped out a few options that all seem pretty suitable though)

I think I was also seeking permission to do the 2 groupings when as you say, it's not really needed - my situation is unique and problematic so "perfect" just doesnt exist!

Glad we're getting on the same page!

Yea I did a terrible job explaining myself again, I was referring to single leg / pistol squat-type where balance becomes an issue, I've really liked keeping my rear foot on the bench as that helps the stability. But yea, I explained that poorly.

Nothing wrong with balancing as long as that balancing foot doesn't gradually creep in as a contributor to performance.

Front squats are in for Saturday's MR day and Smith sissy hacks too! Thanks for the feedback.

You can use the same exercise for both loading sets and MRs.

The belt would've been a good variation (and was one I was originally scoping) but the gym took that away too... If I wasn't traveling a bunch I'd invest in a belt of some sort.

Overall though, you're 100% right and whilst it would be great to keep the same/similar exercises in varying gyms, from a loading progression it just wouldn't make sense to overthink it!

My iron mind super squats belt travels with me in my gym bag.

Much love to you and thank you for your patience with me

No problemo!

-S

[Robbie]

Hey Scott, with the family man 3rd day, what does Thigh(ham) mean?