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Back off "supplements" during intensive cruise?
02-23-2017, 01:32 PM (This post was last modified: 02-23-2017 01:33 PM by thethinker48.)
Post: #1
Back off "supplements" during intensive cruise?
A lot of guys that do Fortitude training usually decrease their supplementation during the "cruise"/deload phase. Wouldn't maintaining higher blood levels in the rat during this time period contribute to more growth as your body overcompensates for the stress you've provided it in the past 5-6 weeks?

Or would it make more sense to lower the dosages on the rat (which might invariably lead to reduced strength during the Muscle rounds?).

Thanks a lot Scott! Fortitude training is one nasty, and painful invention that works incredibly well.
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02-24-2017, 01:00 AM
Post: #2
RE: Back off "supplements" during intensive cruise?
(02-23-2017 01:32 PM)thethinker48 Wrote:
 
A lot of guys that do Fortitude training usually decrease their supplementation during the "cruise"/deload phase. Wouldn't maintaining higher blood levels in the rat during this time period contribute to more growth as your body overcompensates for the stress you've provided it in the past 5-6 weeks?

Or would it make more sense to lower the dosages on the rat (which might invariably lead to reduced strength during the Muscle rounds?).

Thanks a lot Scott! Fortitude training is one nasty, and painful invention that works incredibly well.

Here comes the "rat" talk! LOL If you start mentioning DVDs, I'm banning your ass... LOL

Let's just presume you live in Mexico, Canada or the UK.

SO, this is has been point of contention for years, as Dante (DC) has generically recommended that folks do a mini PCT during a DC training cruise. The argument against this is that you'd not nearly have enough time to restore endogenous output. This could in part be b/c most guys would be using long acting (injectable) compounds which woudl still be active during a 2 week period during a cruise, inhibiting the HPTA. OTOH, one could plan blasts with short acting compounds such that this lingering inhibition were not an issue, but that could be a bit of a juggling act as the blast duration can vary and the need to cruise might just sneak up on someone (without a few weeks' warning).


The argument for this super-supplement "cruise" is that one would be reducing the toxicity load and by using things like HCG, restoring testicular mass to some degree and thus aiding the possibility of a true PCT down the road when someone does cycle "off." (Compare someone who never does this with someone who presumably maintains testicular mass and gonadotrophin responsiveness by interjecting these mini-PCT periods.)

There is also the possibility the "off" periods could restore sensitivity to super supplements when one goes back "on."

Of course, being supplemented during a cruise would aid in recovery.

However, with the rebounding effect of the intermittent cruise, this might off-set the negative impact of being off, so it comes down (once again) to a balancing act that would depend on this individual's and his ability to auto-regulate.

(Some would also use HRT / lower dodges during a cruise period, which of course would be kind of an intermediate between a true "off" period... This would limit any restorative effect, both in terms of HPTA recovery and responsiveness to super-supplements.)

--------

This ultimately comes down to how an individual personally prioritizes (endocrine) health vs. whatever enhancement in gains he things would come from being on full time during he cruises, as well as how he plans super-supp. use during the course of he year.

For example, one might plan to stay on for 2 blasts (and during he cruise between them) and then be off for two blasts, doing a "proper" PCT. (This would follow the old rule of thumb of off time being equivalent to on time.)

-S

-Scott

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The above and all material posted by Scott Stevenson are Copyright © Scott W. Stevenson and Evlogia QiWorks, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
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02-24-2017, 03:43 AM (This post was last modified: 02-24-2017 03:44 AM by thethinker48.)
Post: #3
RE: Back off "supplements" during intensive cruise?
(02-24-2017 01:00 AM)Scott Stevenson Wrote:
 
Here comes the "rat" talk! LOL If you start mentioning DVDs, I'm banning your ass... LOL

Let's just presume you live in Mexico, Canada or the UK.

SO, this is has been point of contention for years, as Dante (DC) has generically recommended that folks do a mini PCT during a DC training cruise. The argument against this is that you'd not nearly have enough time to restore endogenous output. This could in part be b/c most guys would be using long acting (injectable) compounds which woudl still be active during a 2 week period during a cruise, inhibiting the HPTA. OTOH, one could plan blasts with short acting compounds such that this lingering inhibition were not an issue, but that could be a bit of a juggling act as the blast duration can vary and the need to cruise might just sneak up on someone (without a few weeks' warning).


The argument for this super-supplement "cruise" is that one would be reducing the toxicity load and by using things like HCG, restoring testicular mass to some degree and thus aiding the possibility of a true PCT down the road when someone does cycle "off." (Compare someone who never does this with someone who presumably maintains testicular mass and gonadotrophin responsiveness by interjecting these mini-PCT periods.)

There is also the possibility the "off" periods could restore sensitivity to super supplements when one goes back "on."

Of course, being supplemented during a cruise would aid in recovery.

However, with the rebounding effect of the intermittent cruise, this might off-set the negative impact of being off, so it comes down (once again) to a balancing act that would depend on this individual's and his ability to auto-regulate.

(Some would also use HRT / lower dodges during a cruise period, which of course would be kind of an intermediate between a true "off" period... This would limit any restorative effect, both in terms of HPTA recovery and responsiveness to super-supplements.)

--------

This ultimately comes down to how an individual personally prioritizes (endocrine) health vs. whatever enhancement in gains he things would come from being on full time during he cruises, as well as how he plans super-supp. use during the course of he year.

For example, one might plan to stay on for 2 blasts (and during he cruise between them) and then be off for two blasts, doing a "proper" PCT. (This would follow the old rule of thumb of off time being equivalent to on time.)

-S

Haha.

Thanks a lot for your input! The big reason why I ask this is because holding a bodyweight for a certain period of time is I think important for those trying to accrue lbm as fast as possible. I remember the one time I did a DC blast, gained 9 lbs over 10 weeks, reduced calories/"usage amount" for a few weeks during cruise, and lost weight and strength rather quickly (short ester usage). I should've held onto that bodyweight for a period of time to establish some semblance of homeostasis.

For those of us who aren't concerned with "coming off" (the HPTA has been compromised a lot at this point, and constant swings where full restoral won't even take place kind of defeats the purpose), the big question would be where does one draw the line in terms of reducing usage, and maintaining strength (which is paramount, and necessary for the MRs).

Oh well, this isn't something I'll figure out in 1 FT blast. Maybe 10 blasts from now I might have a small answer for myself biggrin
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02-25-2017, 12:12 AM
Post: #4
RE: Back off "supplements" during intensive cruise?
(02-24-2017 03:43 AM)thethinker48 Wrote:
 
Haha.

Thanks a lot for your input! The big reason why I ask this is because holding a bodyweight for a certain period of time is I think important for those trying to accrue lbm as fast as possible. I remember the one time I did a DC blast, gained 9 lbs over 10 weeks, reduced calories/"usage amount" for a few weeks during cruise, and lost weight and strength rather quickly (short ester usage). I should've held onto that bodyweight for a period of time to establish some semblance of homeostasis


This sort of things happened more often than I would have liked to have seen (super supp usage or not) which is why I use an intensive cruise with FT (for the reasons stated in the book).

Quote:For those of us who aren't concerned with "coming off" (the HPTA has been compromised a lot at this point, and constant swings where full restoral won't even take place kind of defeats the purpose), the big question would be where does one draw the line in terms of reducing usage, and maintaining strength (which is paramount, and necessary for the MRs).

Oh well, this isn't something I'll figure out in 1 FT blast. Maybe 10 blasts from now I might have a small answer for myself biggrin

It's really not the big of a quagmire. If you're cruising for only 2 weeks or so, this shouldn't be an issue if you adjust training volume (Tier in FT). For someone using "supplements" that cause a lot of water this could have some effect, but water comes and goes in a matter of days.

IMO, there is generally MUCH too much focus these days (online) on the impact of super supplementation in the context of training, diet and ensuring proper recovery. Most folks come back stronger after an intensive cruise, assuming long term goal they are pursuing is size gain, so diet is in place.

Google "gains keeper formula" for an interesting old school perspective on this. Smile

-S

-Scott

Thanks for joining my Forum! dog

The above and all material posted by Scott Stevenson are Copyright © Scott W. Stevenson and Evlogia QiWorks, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
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02-27-2017, 12:24 PM (This post was last modified: 02-27-2017 12:24 PM by thethinker48.)
Post: #5
RE: Back off "supplements" during intensive cruise?
(02-25-2017 12:12 AM)Scott Stevenson Wrote:
 
This sort of things happened more often than I would have liked to have seen (super supp usage or not) which is why I use an intensive cruise with FT (for the reasons stated in the book).


It's really not the big of a quagmire. If you're cruising for only 2 weeks or so, this shouldn't be an issue if you adjust training volume (Tier in FT). For someone using "supplements" that cause a lot of water this could have some effect, but water comes and goes in a matter of days.

IMO, there is generally MUCH too much focus these days (online) on the impact of super supplementation in the context of training, diet and ensuring proper recovery. Most folks come back stronger after an intensive cruise, assuming long term goal they are pursuing is size gain, so diet is in place.

Google "gains keeper formula" for an interesting old school perspective on this. Smile

-S

Sometimes you just need a reminder on this by a mind a few orders of magnitude smarter than yours.

We are bodybuilders, it's in our DNA try to try do too MUCH of everything biggrinwinkie
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02-28-2017, 01:19 AM
Post: #6
RE: Back off "supplements" during intensive cruise?
(02-27-2017 12:24 PM)thethinker48 Wrote:
 
Sometimes you just need a reminder on this by a mind a few orders of magnitude smarter than yours.

We are bodybuilders, it's in our DNA try to try do too MUCH of everything biggrinwinkie

LOL!!!

I think its also that we're HUMAN and at the same time are looking for the easiest route sometimes, as well, and we paint a picture based on the info. we're presented with.

In decades past, no on was talking about these kinds of things (at least in the US), so new guys (and women) coming into the sport followed suit, which meant focusing on training, diet and other means of recovery. Now, the landscape is different.

Consider Dante's observation simply that the largest guys lifted the heaviest loads (for reps), thus suggesting that progressive overload was the way to go. He saw this as a main distinguishing feature separating the monsters from the not so large.

Nowadays, there are very few (Jordan Peters being the main one who does to mind) who are open about super supplementation and brutally hard training. Consider how many of the "drug guru" kinds of personalities are out there who don't really have any videos of themselves actually TRAINING. This sends a very distinct blend of information, which logically suggests that drugs are more important than training (or other things).

-S

-Scott

Thanks for joining my Forum! dog

The above and all material posted by Scott Stevenson are Copyright © Scott W. Stevenson and Evlogia QiWorks, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
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10-22-2017, 10:18 AM
Post: #7
RE: Back off "supplements" during intensive cruise?
Hi Scott,
I was not able to post a separate thread for some reason so I figured that i'd post here. You're the most knowledgable person I know and i'm curious to know what you'd consider the most optimal PCT? I know the answer may be broad. Also, do you believe that HCG is suppressive in PCT? If so, for what reason?
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10-23-2017, 10:45 AM
Post: #8
RE: Back off "supplements" during intensive cruise?
(10-22-2017 10:18 AM)kingkahjj Wrote:
 
Hi Scott,
I was not able to post a separate thread for some reason so I figured that i'd post here. You're the most knowledgable person I know and i'm curious to know what you'd consider the most optimal PCT? I know the answer may be broad. Also, do you believe that HCG is suppressive in PCT? If so, for what reason?

I'd google the revised version of PoWeR PCT.

Suppressive to what in what way?... (I suspect you're going to answer your last question if you can answer this one.)

-S

-Scott

Thanks for joining my Forum! dog

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