Diet setup critique

[nordan]

Afternoon chaps.. below is a pretty long winded post so if you have time then please have a read, if not then thanks for checking in!

Summary:
Should I be in a deficit, sit at maintenance or be in a surplus on a rest day throughout a gaining phase when the goal is to keep body composition relatively in check?

A little (or a lot) of information to go base your views upon..

My main goal is to gain weight.. first things first I am natural so muscle is harder to come by as we all know.

I have in the past cycled through a traditional 6 month off-season followed by an extended cut then repeat aiming to gain around 1lb a week however with no intention to compete anymore I am looking to adopt a new approach of keeping it as tight and in as little a surplus as possible in order to have a really successful gaining phase.

Current weight is 155lb, I would like to sit at 170lbs which is quite a jump but regardless of that, that is my goal weight one day.

The end of my last prep I ended up at 154 and was quite happy with my look however after my comp I regrettably tried to make the most of my rebound and I ended up injuring myself due to accumulative fatigue / overtraining which in turn resulted in muscle loss and fat gain (from not being able to train efficiently etc).

As stated above I am only 1lb heavier but with around the same condition as I was at 158-160 so really looking to make the most of this year by regaining lost tissue and overall labeling my little injury / mishap as a minor blip rather than a major setback .

I over the course of this down period been running FT Basic Tier II and essentially working around my injury's which for the record are both shoulder related (both rotator cuffs). This annoyingly has limited the exercises I could do so squats, deads, anything where I rest weight on my back, any sort of pressing movement, flat bench, overhead press etc have all been out which has left me with a very small selection of exercises to work with (leg press, pec-fly, side lateral raises).

A few months from the initial hit I now feel fully recovered or atleast 95% and looking to start making some serious progress. Hopefully the result of not utilising all or any of these exercises over the last few months will spurt some new and additional growth when I start to implement them back into my training and make up for lost time.

With this in mind I am however going to ere on the side of caution as I don't want to re-lapse like I did post comp. Some exercises are still out of the equation based on recent feedback however I have and still am slowly introducing new movements which all seem to be going well.

Below is my current diet setup etc..

Current kcals or should I say kcals as of recent blast:

1900 @ 12 kcal per lb on rest day
p: 260 c: 45 f:75 approx values.

3000 @ 20 kcal per lb on training days
p: 295 c:315 f:60 approx values.

you can see from above that I am or have been essentially in a deficit rest days and in a larger than normal surplus on training based on a 15x per lb = maintenance value (2325 kcals) formula.

I am currently cruising and on the last few days of the 'no training period' and
in regards to diet setup I have had to bring calories up to 15x per lb due to my weight dropping and by doing so have added some additional carbohydrates on rest days, at both meal 1 and 3.

2320 @ 15 kcal per lb on rest day
p: 278 c: 110 f:85 approx values.

Where do I go from here? I am unsure whether or not to keep my kcals on rest days at a similar value as is of 15x per lb and then drop down the training day kcals to 18kcal per lb to offset that increase or.... revert back to my 12kcal per lb rest day and 20 kcal per lb training day ratio.. do you think there is a benefit of going with one setup over the other?

All in all my weekly a caloric total will be the approximately the same but just set up slightly differently.

The issue I have with both of these is I am going to have to drop food on one day or the other and both days I am extremely ravenous, I eat whole filling foods and a ridiculous amount of veg which keeps me satiated to an extent but if someone put another meal in front of me I could happily inhale the lot no issue.

Thanks in advance!

[Altamir]

This is a good question, but I think you might be over thinking it a bit. You were losing weight, your brought your calories up on rest days. Then the next sentance you ask if you want to drop your calories down on training days to offset the increase (or reverting back). Both of these options look like they are only going to put you back into an overall deficit.

If I my be so bold, and without any insult. Looks to be your bad experience with your rebound has made you a little gun shy as far as adding calories. You are already stating you are losing weight and extremely hungry, yet your overall goal to is gain weight, all bit it slowly. Your statement at your goals are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

I would simply keep adding calories (next increase should be on your training day) until you get to a stable weight and you aren't suffering day to day from hunger. From there make minor tweaks and see what the results are. (be it calorie amounts, macros, etc)


For myself personally, when training FT. I find I need A LOT of calories on training days. Far more than I need on rest days. So while I would not consider this a "deficit" I would consider the difference fairly wide. I also keep my rest days at trace carbs. I can pack on fat semi easily, and all of this sort of keeps things in check. I'm finding now personally with my experiement in DC training, and the one reduced training day, that I am probably going to have to increase my rest day calories as I now have 4 of them, one or two of them active.

For one final thought. And again not a critisim, but perhaps just to get you thinking differently? I personally think the whole "XX"kcal per pound measurement is not exactly useful. metabolisms vary tremenously. On 20kcal per lb on training days, I would be dead and losing weight rapidly. Doing the math very quickly, I'm at 24kcal right now, in a reverse deit, and I'm still not putting weight on the scale. Point being, I would go by calories that you have set for you, and forget the whole "XX"kcal as a starting point, just track your calories and go from there.

[nordan]

This is a good question, but I think you might be over thinking it a bit. You were losing weight, your brought your calories up on rest days. Then the next sentance you ask if you want to drop your calories down on training days to offset the increase (or reverting back). Both of these options look like they are only going to put you back into an overall deficit.

If I my be so bold, and without any insult. Looks to be your bad experience with your rebound has made you a little gun shy as far as adding calories. You are already stating you are losing weight and extremely hungry, yet your overall goal to is gain weight, all bit it slowly. Your statement at your goals are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

I would simply keep adding calories (next increase should be on your training day) until you get to a stable weight and you aren't suffering day to day from hunger. From there make minor tweaks and see what the results are. (be it calorie amounts, macros, etc)


For myself personally, when training FT. I find I need A LOT of calories on training days. Far more than I need on rest days. So while I would not consider this a "deficit" I would consider the difference fairly wide. I also keep my rest days at trace carbs. I can pack on fat semi easily, and all of this sort of keeps things in check. I'm finding now personally with my experiement in DC training, and the one reduced training day, that I am probably going to have to increase my rest day calories as I now have 4 of them, one or two of them active.

For one final thought. And again not a critisim, but perhaps just to get you thinking differently? I personally think the whole "XX"kcal per pound measurement is not exactly useful. metabolisms vary tremenously. On 20kcal per lb on training days, I would be dead and losing weight rapidly. Doing the math very quickly, I'm at 24kcal right now, in a reverse deit, and I'm still not putting weight on the scale. Point being, I would go by calories that you have set for you, and forget the whole "XX"kcal as a starting point, just track your calories and go from there.

Thanks for the response Altamir..

My whole thinking around this is that I want to be in a 2-300 kcal surplus so that I facilitate muscle growth without excess fat gain.. yes fat gain is inevitble but if I can keep it at bay and stop packing it on as quick then in turn my off-season / gaining phase will be hella more productive, lengthy and more successful. The last thing I want to do is 2 blasts and have to mini cut to bring things back in line such as insulin sensitivity etc.

Also in regards to the kcal per lb equations they were just listed so that whoever read this had an indication as to where they were at relative to body weight.

I have been gaining weight @ approx .5lb a week throughout my blast however LOSING weight throughout the cruise (no training period) which indicates my surplus is coming from training days hence the loss of weight during the cruise. The surplus itself is obviously quite high to offset the deficit on a rest day and I am curious as to whether I would be better off bringing them more in line with one another rather than sitting at one end of the spectrum on a training day (surplus) and the other on a rest day (deficit).

Essentially would I be better off by doing the following:

Sitting at a 300kcal surplus overall on a training day and sat at maintenance on a rest day which in turn gives me 1200 kcal surplus across the week.

or....

Doing what I am doing now which is sitting at a 700 kcal surplus on a training day and a 400 kcal deficit on a rest day which in turn gives me a 1200 kcal surplus across the week.


You can see that the weekly surplus is exactly the same come the end of the week but is there a benefit to doing one over the other?

What is the most optimal way ?

Sorry if it didnt come across that way throughout my OG post.

[Altamir]

Ah ok. This makes A LOT more sense!

Answer is not as easy. I'll start by saying I often drop weight on my cruises, but not do to reduced calories, but often due to reduced carbs. I tend to run a little flat by the end, so take that into consideration.

As to what's the best way? Nobody is going to know that but you. I personally like to run my calories a bit on the low side on my non training days and have a carb feast after training, with buckets of calories and mixing bowls full of food. My body reponds well (IMO) to this sort of abuse I do this because I can put fat on easily, I find the low non training days help keep my carb sensative. and that the extra calories and carbs after training and handled very well (both digestively and in filling me out). I'm still tinkering with it, but where I am now today with my diet was about 3 or 4 years of adjusting and readjusting, (honestly over 8 years if you count from the beginning) and I'm still adjusting.

I'd honestly suggest giving your best guess, given what you know about yourself (you can use this post as a sounding board if you feel like getting some additional feed back), and head in a direction. Note what happens, what you liked, what you disliked, use that data and tweak it. I understand it's not a hard line "this is answer", but such a thing does not exist. I hope that some of my thought process above helped a bit. Let me know if you have any other questions or require some calrification.

[Scott Stevenson]

Thanks for the response Altamir..

My whole thinking around this is that I want to be in a 2-300 kcal surplus so that I facilitate muscle growth without excess fat gain.. yes fat gain is inevitble but if I can keep it at bay and stop packing it on as quick then in turn my off-season / gaining phase will be hella more productive, lengthy and more successful. The last thing I want to do is 2 blasts and have to mini cut to bring things back in line such as insulin sensitivity etc.

Also in regards to the kcal per lb equations they were just listed so that whoever read this had an indication as to where they were at relative to body weight.

I have been gaining weight @ approx .5lb a week throughout my blast however LOSING weight throughout the cruise (no training period) which indicates my surplus is coming from training days hence the loss of weight during the cruise. The surplus itself is obviously quite high to offset the deficit on a rest day and I am curious as to whether I would be better off bringing them more in line with one another rather than sitting at one end of the spectrum on a training day (surplus) and the other on a rest day (deficit).

Essentially would I be better off by doing the following:

Sitting at a 300kcal surplus overall on a training day and sat at maintenance on a rest day which in turn gives me 1200 kcal surplus across the week.

or....

Doing what I am doing now which is sitting at a 700 kcal surplus on a training day and a 400 kcal deficit on a rest day which in turn gives me a 1200 kcal surplus across the week.


You can see that the weekly surplus is exactly the same come the end of the week but is there a benefit to doing one over the other?

What is the most optimal way ?

Sorry if it didnt come across that way throughout my OG post.

If the progress during the Blasts is good (as it sounds) and you're regressing only during the Cruises, I would simply eat more during the cruises. You could increase kcal during the non-training days (same foods, etc. just more) or have a day or two during the latter part of the IC (when not training) that's a "re-feed" of sorts.

I would bet you'll come back felling really good and quite strong doing this.

How much weight are you losing during the Cruises?... (And how much strength, if any?... Or do you rebound strength-wise despite the weight loss?...)

-S

[nordan]

If the progress during the Blasts is good (as it sounds) and you're regressing only during the Cruises, I would simply eat more during the cruises. You could increase kcal during the non-training days (same foods, etc. just more) or have a day or two during the latter part of the IC (when not training) that's a "re-feed" of sorts.

I would bet you'll come back felling really good and quite strong doing this.

How much weight are you losing during the Cruises?... (And how much strength, if any?... Or do you rebound strength-wise despite the weight loss?...)

-S

Altamir, Scott.. thanks for the responses again.

Scott this is what I’ve been tinkering with, as I noticed my weight dropping on a daily albeit small e.g .25lbs -.5lbs, I think I dropped 2.5lbs across the week at which point I brought started to eat more and brought kcals up to maintenance for the second part of the cruise (non training period) using the 15x kcal per lb method as a guide stated in the book and using a mixed macro approach again just to have a little normality (I will be reverting back to the standard trace carb approach on rest days most likely)

Altamir is right in that the weight drop could of been due to the extended trace carb days which is why I opted for the mixed macro approach so to speak in meal 1 and 3.
I chose these meals as I wanted to experiment how my body responded, I seem to recall in the past really flagging a little both concentration wise and with brain fog post meal 3 and in the afternoon which could again be down to having trace carbs for an extended period of time (the symptoms would occur approx 18 hours after consuming carbohydrates which was from the night prior as again I only have one all out post workout meal. So again I wanted to see if the symptoms would alleviate as such if I reduced that time frame by consuming some on the non training day.
It seemed to kind of help if I recall correctly. Difficult to tell as it was only a short period of time..

I am back training now (today was my second day) as my cruise has finished. In regards to strength these last two sessions (Day 3&4, as that’s how my end of cruise landed) I haven’t lost any strength and have gained some albeit incremental which is positive. I have also started to notice some more size in terms of a proper rebound effect which I haven’t really in my previous cruises.. again not sure if this is because of what I’ve done throughout the cruise, bringing my kcals to maintenance on rest days, consuming additional carbs on those rest days or it’s due to muscle memory kicking in as like mentioned I lost some muscle due to not being able to train properly.




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[Scott Stevenson]

Altamir, Scott.. thanks for the responses again.

Scott this is what I’ve been tinkering with, as I noticed my weight dropping on a daily albeit small e.g .25lbs -.5lbs, I think I dropped 2.5lbs across the week at which point I brought started to eat more and brought kcals up to maintenance for the second part of the cruise (non training period) using the 15x kcal per lb method as a guide stated in the book and using a mixed macro approach again just to have a little normality (I will be reverting back to the standard trace carb approach on rest days most likely)

Strength?

Will the bolded strategy keep you from losing weight?...

-S

[nordan]

I am back training now (today was my second day) as my cruise has finished. In regards to strength these last two sessions (Day 3&4, as that’s how my end of cruise landed) I haven’t lost any strength and have gained some albeit incremental which is positive. I have also started to notice some more size in terms of a proper rebound effect which I haven’t really in my previous cruises.. again not sure if this is because of what I’ve done throughout the cruise, bringing my kcals to maintenance on rest days, consuming additional carbs on those rest days or it’s due to muscle memory kicking in as like mentioned I lost some muscle due to not being able to train properly.




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Strength?

Will the bolded strategy keep you from losing weight?...

-S

Strength based upon & over the last two sessions hasn't diminished buddy from what I recall and has improved.

In regards to losing weight then possibly.. but like mentioned it then shoots back up and I gain a lb to 1.5lb's after a training day so daily it fluctuates, one day I lose, the next I gain which is obviously down to the huge surplus one day and then deficit the next.. Weight come the end of the week seems to increase by .5lb approx as an average which is spot on I think as a natural If the goal is to increase as much FFM as possible.

This is the reason for my OG post.. would I be better continuing this up and down approach even though I have gained weight come the end of the week or adopt the approach I suggested (bringing rest day kcals up to maintenance and reducing the training day surplus down slightly to compensate the increase up to maintenance) which would presumably keep the weight stable across the week.

The goal is to gain in as little amount of surplus as possible so this is the reasoning of reducing the kcals on training days to compensate that change rather than just adding 400 kcals a day to rest days. That increase would equate to 1200 kcals more across the week which would technically make me gain .3lb more a week and approx .8lb a week which to me I think is too much from past experience.
Realistically I highly doubt any additional gains via muscle would be made and any weight gain would either be additional water or fat.

[Altamir]

Strength based upon & over the last two sessions hasn't diminished buddy from what I recall and has improved.

In regards to losing weight then possibly.. but like mentioned it then shoots back up and I gain a lb to 1.5lb's after a training day so daily it fluctuates, one day I lose, the next I gain which is obviously down to the huge surplus one day and then deficit the next.. Weight come the end of the week seems to increase by .5lb approx as an average which is spot on I think as a natural If the goal is to increase as much FFM as possible.

This is the reason for my OG post.. would I be better continuing this up and down approach even though I have gained weight come the end of the week or adopt the approach I suggested (bringing rest day kcals up to maintenance and reducing the training day surplus down slightly to compensate the increase up to maintenance) which would presumably keep the weight stable across the week.

The goal is to gain in as little amount of surplus as possible so this is the reasoning of reducing the kcals on training days to compensate that change rather than just adding 400 kcals a day to rest days. That increase would equate to 1200 kcals more across the week which would technically make me gain .3lb more a week and approx .8lb a week which to me I think is too much from past experience.
Realistically I highly doubt any additional gains via muscle would be made and any weight gain would either be additional water or fat.

So for myself, with the way I have my diet set up, my weight flucates throughout the week. Up after training days, down over non training days. For myself, I have fouind this to be a nice little sweet spot, as long as the swings aren't too wild. Only downside I've seen from this is after the tail end of a cruise I usually roll into my first training session depleted and a little flat, and usually my strength is sort of "meh". This has been solved, while in a gain phase, but having a pretty good carb meal (nothing crazy or a cheat meal) the night before.

[Scott Stevenson]

Nordan,

In your previous cruises where you lost weight and we set back, did you come back after the cruise stronger, weaker or the same at the start of the next blast?.

(You missed this Q previously and this is what I meant by "Strength?" in my previous post.)

Strength based upon & over the last two sessions hasn't diminished buddy from what I recall and has improved.

In regards to losing weight then possibly.. but like mentioned it then shoots back up and I gain a lb to 1.5lb's after a training day so daily it fluctuates, one day I lose, the next I gain which is obviously down to the huge surplus one day and then deficit the next.. Weight come the end of the week seems to increase by .5lb approx as an average which is spot on I think as a natural If the goal is to increase as much FFM as possible.

This is the reason for my OG post.. would I be better continuing this up and down approach even though I have gained weight come the end of the week or adopt the approach I suggested (bringing rest day kcals up to maintenance and reducing the training day surplus down slightly to compensate the increase up to maintenance) which would presumably keep the weight stable across the week.

The goal is to gain in as little amount of surplus as possible so this is the reasoning of reducing the kcals on training days to compensate that change rather than just adding 400 kcals a day to rest days. That increase would equate to 1200 kcals more across the week which would technically make me gain .3lb more a week and approx .8lb a week which to me I think is too much from past experience.
Realistically I highly doubt any additional gains via muscle would be made and any weight gain would either be additional water or fat.

I'm only suggesting (for far) that you do something to prevent the weight loss during the Intermittent Cruise, as the rate of gain when blasting sounds great.

That could be probably be done by eating as if you WERE training on days you don't (at the end of the cruise and perhaps during it if you weight is slipping down d/t slightly lower frequency). You can do this by having a a couple large meals on those faux training days.



-S